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Project Direction and Writing in RPGs - Do RPGs actually benefit from having more than one writer?

Trashos

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Politician, you have got a point, but I think that both knowledge of the medium and outside influences are important. You have already been given the example of Fallout, with influences from Mad Max, 50's culture, Aphex Twin music etc. In addition, since videogames are still basically in their infancy, outside influences make all the more sense.

All in all, I think that using a good movie to get everyone on the same page with regards to tone etc is very appropriate. That is not to say that the writers should not be aware of game classics, you are right on that point.

On the issue of compartmentalization, don't hold your breath. AA/AAA games are huge projects, and I do not see what alternative there is. I agree that the writer hirings in Obsidian have been weird (who the fuck picked then from the older generation?!), though.
 

FreeKaner

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Josh is useful as the team autist, for consultation on matters of authenticity and minute details. He would also be good at identifying some problems with a given system's design. However not for fixing them, some problems often have no good fix that doesn't result in greater loss than gain in which cases compensation is more important. He also is in love with streamlining and should be kept away from balance at all costs.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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Politician, you have got a point, but I think that both knowledge of the medium and outside influences are important. You have already been given the example of Fallout, with influences from Mad Max, 50's culture, Aphex Twin music etc.

Outside influences and literary creativity are all nice and dandy. What I am criticising is the belief that cRPGs are a medium that should resemble novels or movies. This misconception attracts all kinds of wrong people and bad ideas. Games are attempts to surpass unnecessary challenges. cRPGs are games whose gameplay is determined by stats/skills and C&C. This assumption should be viewed as a bed rock of the dialogue/story, not the other way around. It’s a matter of emphasis. For example, nobody will ever suggest that King of Dragon Pass or Darklands are literary masterpieces, but they are exquisitely well written. They are good as it gets. If you think that there is something childish about them, you are just wrong.

In addition, since videogames are still basically in their infancy, outside influences make all the more sense.

Infancy? We have cRPGs since the 70s. That’s almost 50 years of history, which is a lot! cRPGs are a mature medium. The only reason to think otherwise is this misguided misconception that the writing part should rival with the works of the best novelists. This way of thinking is just wrong. There are certain rules of cRPG design that prevent this type of prose because they are grounded on gameplay conventions that worked.

All in all, I think that using a good movie to get everyone on the same page with regards to tone etc is very appropriate.
Look, either you are a well read and cultured individual or you are not. If you are not, you won’t be able to capture the intended inspiration from another source just because someone told you to. Besides, people have distinct artistic sensibilities. They won’t express the same tone, because each person will respond differently to the same stimulus. The problem here is the absurd notion that you can use different writers with different levels of experience to make a consistent narrative. It never works.

On the issue of compartmentalization, don't hold your breath. AA/AAA games are huge projects, and I do not see what alternative there is. I agree that the writer hirings in Obsidian have been weird (who the fuck picked then from the older generation?!), though.
Smaller teams with longer development process can provide better results while still being less expensive. The scope of the game only affects the need for more artists though, but that’s a detail.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
If the director doesn't have a vision of what the game should be, then who does?
Because your vocabulary reeks of artsy pretentiousness. Instead of talking about the vision, you could talk about the concept. Besides, it is nonsensical to talk about directors as visionaries in games with huge teams like PoE because they can't imprint their views on anything. You have too many cooks trying different things. By contrast, King of Dragon Pass was made by three designers (David Dunham, Greg Stafford, Robin Laws). Dunham had the concept. His studio only employed him and his wife. See the difference?
 

Prime Junta

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Because your vocabulary reeks of artsy pretentiousness.

And yours reeks of edgy aggressive posturing by someone with the mental age of 13 and a half.

Instead of talking about the vision, you could talk about the concept.

Concept and vision aren't synonyms. A concept is a concise and limited articulation of the vision. The vision is the end result, as imagined by whoever is making it.

Besides, it is nonsensical to talk about directors as visionaries in games with huge teams like PoE because they can't imprint their views on anything. You have too many cooks trying different things.

Yet TV, film, theatre, and opera directors do manage to imprint their views on their productions even though the teams are even bigger. How come and what's the crucial difference?

By contrast, King of Dragon Pass was made by three designers (David Dunham, Greg Stafford, Robin Laws). Dunham had the concept. His studio only employed him and his wife. See the difference?

I don't see what that hast do with anything, but okay.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Yet TV, film, theatre, and opera directors do manage to imprint their views on their productions even though the teams are even bigger. How come and what's the crucial difference?
Because you don't have different writers each one trying to express their own vision.

By contrast, King of Dragon Pass was made by three designers (David Dunham, Greg Stafford, Robin Laws). Dunham had the concept. His studio only employed him and his wife. See the difference?

I don't see what that hast do with anything, but okay.
The point is that with a smaller team is easier to imprint your vision and obtain better results.
 

DalekFlay

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Also film/TV long ago embraced the director/showrunner as creative lead concept, and treat them as the "artist" while others are treated more as craftsmen. I don't think this concept is that popular in gaming, outside some rare examples like Ken Levine and Warren Spector.
 

Roguey

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A lot of Obsidian employees did consider PoE Sawyer's vision (even if he didn't)
Many developers at Obsidian referred to the development of Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire as a studio-wide effort to bring Josh Sawyer’s vision to life. Sawyer doesn’t see it quite the same way. Yes, he’s the game director, and yes, most decisions are filtered through him. But game development is a collaborative effort, and Sawyer has always been willing to defer to peers if he finds merit in their input.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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Sawyer literally run dumpsterfire to ground with his directing. Really as expected from someone whose vision is Atlanto-Hyperborean Germanic origins and German domination of the world.
Riiight, because he was holding Patel back. Such a waste of talent.
 
The Real Fanboy
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I remember Patel making jokes about Obsidian developers with pictures. She called Avellone a cry baby.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the joke against Avellone on twitter (‘Let the force be with you’ with a red nose) was her doing.

Um.......what?

edit: I mean is this just weird fanfic or
 

Trashos

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It is really unfortunate we let an austrofascist get in the way of talented writers like Patel and Starks. Who by the way wrote only good parts of both PoE1 and Poe2, as well as Tyranny which has an act 1 that is more creative and coherent than entirety of both PoE.

Damn. Just think of all the gay content that never saw the light of day. I can barely hold my tears.
 

Ismaul

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Tim Cain is cancelled
Tin Can now.

EmptyTin.png
 

Ismaul

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A stronger director would ask the question "Is this appropriate for the setting?" Additionally, a stronger director would insist on having all designers play and analyze the Infinity Engine games. Josh did not.

A lot of Obsidian employees did consider PoE Sawyer's vision (even if he didn't)
Many developers at Obsidian referred to the development of Pillars of Eternity and Deadfire as a studio-wide effort to bring Josh Sawyer’s vision to life. Sawyer doesn’t see it quite the same way. Yes, he’s the game director, and yes, most decisions are filtered through him. But game development is a collaborative effort, and Sawyer has always been willing to defer to peers if he finds merit in their input.
So you're saying Sawyer phoned it in because he wasn't an autocratic director, but valued collaboration?

Might I remind you this wasn't "Fuck you: Suck my Dick: Josh Sawyer's Dream RPG Experience", but rather the game that was deemed best for Obsidian? It wasn't Sawyer's call to make an IE clone, so why would he act like it was his own thing rather than a collaborative effort in which others had plenty of influence?
 

Prime Junta

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Sawyer was quite autocratic about mechanics and the setting. Just not the writing.
 
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Ismaul

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Yes, but that was his area of expertise, innit?

You can't control everything. And shouldn't on a big project.
 

Prime Junta

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Yes, but that was his area of expertise, innit?

You can't control everything. And shouldn't on a big project.

If you don’t, it ends up a clusterfuck. But if that’s the kind of thing you like, sure.
 

Ismaul

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I don't. PoE was a mixed bag. Don't know about Deadfire, don't care.

But not being able to delegate is highly detrimental if you're a project director. You can't do everything yourself. You'll burn out. That's why there are other leads.
 

Prime Junta

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But not being able to delegate is highly detrimental if you're a project director. You can't do everything yourself. You'll burn out. That's why there are other leads.

The really hard thing is to be able to combine the two: delegate and exercise control. It is possible, just very difficult.

Steve Jobs was famous for his ability to do just this.
 

Ismaul

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Sure. But are we asking Josh to be Steve Jobs now, or else he's phoning it in?

Also we're talking as if the owners didn't exist and exert control with terrible effects. It's as if MCA didn't say shit about owners running things and moods into the ground. No no no, Josh is responsible for it all.
 

Prime Junta

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Why this burning need to make excuses for him?
 

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