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KickStarter Underworld Ascendant is a disaster

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
We know for a fact that they put the project on hold for half that time, and that less than 15 devs worked full-time on it, and the salaries certainly didn't amount to $100K/year.
I've got my own theories about how they funded this, but $100k/yr for an entry level programmer is low for Boston. Remember, that cost needs to include health insurance. It's probably more like ~$135k minimum per developer, plus rent, utilities, overhead (admin staff - that have health insurance as well), etc.

Codex cannot into running a business. I know some of these values seem crazy to those outside the US, or hell, even to those living in the southern parts of the US, but that's the market. A 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment near boston will cost you ~2.5k+/mo, easily. Shitty food is $12/plate. Welcome to the north east!

It always boggles my mind why mid-sized game dev studios choose to locate themselves in such terribly overplaced locations where the costs of production are driven up astronomically just because you need to pay your employees twice as much as elsewhere if you want them to be able to pay for rent and food.

Let me inject some more reality into these conversations.

From a purely fiscal point of view, you're obviously correct. From a logistics point of view, Otherside as a company only exists, and thus was funded, due to the names attached to it. Those industry "veterans" (given what we know now, the PTSD / disability connotations may be the most appropriate) mostly lived in Boston, and are of an age to have spouses with significantly developed careers in the area, children in the school systems, significant property ownership, and family and friends that make up their support network. These are not your unattached 20-somethings fresh out of school / the basement who are happy to move to Austin, Kansas City, or New Orleans for cheaper OPEX.

Given their veteran status, such significant start-up costs could be understandable based on an anticipated ROI. Given hindsight and the objective state of their work product, it was clearly pouring money down a drain to support the continued livelihood of people who do not understand how to make a game.

To me, the real interesting question that comes out of this whole fiasco is: what is missing from the old days that enabled UU and the LGS of old? Some may say it's age, lack of inspiration or drive to really put in the work and create something new, but as I personally age and work with older folks - I find the opposite to be true. Often the older people get, the more they relish in using their skills to great effect. I find the 'burn out has-been' excuse too pat. So: what changed between the old games and the new? My guess is that there were some key people involved in the old games that don't have the same name recognition (edit) and were not part of Otherside. Doctor Sbaitso Infinitron anyone you can think of from the Underworld and Thief days that may have been a key creative or pragmatic driving force that wasn't involved with this current hot mess?

UW was coded by MIT geeks and UA was coded by dorks. Systemically, UW was much deeper than UA. The game was literally filled with cool systemic touches... UA has almost none beyond what could be discovered in the first hour.

It's an unfortunate sign of the times... Huge art assets, a demanding crowd who expects unreal 4 in all its glory plus the magic of UW. The engine proved too cumbersome for their team and the baby went out with the bathwater.

There is something to be said for building something out of necessity rather than wrestling something built principally for other purposes. I submit that a straight unity port of the original code with new levels below 8, modest but grim graphics, level and UI improvements, revamped sound and systemic touches would have been successful.
 

Nyast

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The problem is that nobody wanted innovations, as far as I know. Everybody would have been happy with a modern Underworld, improved ( but moody, not cartoony ) graphics and a bunch of new levels / story. It didn't really need new mechanics. Just translate the Underworld formula, and boom, you've got a success. It's even more funny when you think that the Underworld formula would still feel fresh and innovative today, as there are about zero other dungeon crawlers with complex, open-ended non-linear levels. Their #1 mistake was not realizing that.
 

Curratum

Guest
There is something to be said for building something out of necessity rather than wrestling something built principally for other purposes. I submit that a straight unity port of the original code with new levels below 8, modest but grim graphics, level and UI improvements, revamped sound and systemic touches would have been successful.

No shit, Sherlock! :D
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/othersidegames/underworld-ascendant/posts/2485097

Update 3 & KS Update (April 2019)
Posted by OtherSide Entertainment (Creator)


Hi everyone!

Update 3 is now live for Underworld Ascendant!

This update includes large performance improvements, bug fixes, and other polish. You can read the full build notes here on Steam.

In addition to Update 3's launch, Underworld Ascendant is currently on sale for 50% OFF on Steam!

We also released the digital Tracy Hickman novella for backers who purchased it as an add-on and any qualifying Digital Protagonist+ and the digital soundtrack!

As always, you can track the status of all of the rewards here.

Note that we are still aiming to have physical shipments for KS rewards by the summer of this year.

To access your currently available digital rewards, remember to log into BackerKit with your Kickstarter credentials to access your Digital Downloads for your Steam keys. If you are having issues logging into your BackerKit, please contact us at support@otherside-e.com.

Our next step will be working on an Update 4, which includes more creatures and NPCs for The Abyss. This is being developed alongside work for Mac / Linux / console ports. (These ports are being handled by other companies so we can focus on polishing up the additions we have in mind for Update 4.)

When we have more to share, we will post another update as soon as possible. If you want to check in on our progress on a weekly basis, feel free to join us on our new forums and skim through our Weekly Updates.

Last but not least, last week we casually played some varied sections of Update 3 to review some of the changes that have gone in, showcase some spell-crafting, and talk about the direction for Update 4. The video is available on our YouTube now.

Cheers,
The OtherSide Team
 

BEvers

I'm forever blowing
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Untitled.png
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Infinitron shilling hard even after the game is dead, now that's some dedication. Good jew, good. *pats head*
 
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MasterLobar

Angry OtherSide Refugee
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Instead of bashing the buyers of her sh*t game, maybe the community manager should ask herself why there has not one single positive thread on the Steam forum for weeks.

And could it be possible that it's not a coincidence that the forum is "flooded with angry people"?

Noooo...let's blame our sh*t on a conspiracy of disgruntled gamers. Well, it's Otherside, so no surprise here.
 

MasterLobar

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Some interesting twist in this Steam thread:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/

When confronted with their promise during the kickstarter

"Underworld Ascendant is a genuine part of the Underworld series. We have the rights to use all of the elements of the original Underworld games, except for the Ultima brand itself. The characters, monsters, settings, and stories from the original Underworld games are all available for us."

She responds:

"As I understand it, as the paperwork was reviewed during the project, it was strongly advised to avoid any Ultima-related creatures / names / places, etc." (emphasis added)

So the exact opposite of what they promised was true.

They told us they can use ALL Ultima content, but in reality, they knew they couldn't use ANY Ultima content at all. Or at least they knew that they didn't know if they can use any of it, because they had not "reviewed the paperwork" (who the f*** believes that??).

This is FRAUD. I would have NEVER backed UA if I had known that there would be no Ultima content in it.

This is no lapse. This was intentional lying. They knew the Ultima fans wouldn't back their project if there is no Ultima content. The backers gave them $800k to make a UU successor and they knew from day 1 they'd make a game based on silly Greek mythology.

So far, I thought they were just idiots who f**ked up. But no, this scam was the plan all along.

I'm boiling with rage.
 
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Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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They could use the abyss, creatures and characters with the exception of Ultima specific lore, trademarks or characters part of the broader series. You are confused Lobar.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

MasterLobar

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Doctor Sbaitso , I don't think I'm confused.

This is from the kickstarter page:

"Underworld Ascendant is a genuine part of the Underworld series. We have the rights to use all of the elements of the original Underworld games, except for the Ultima brand itself. The characters, monsters, settings, and stories from the original Underworld games are all available for us." (emphasis added)

https://underworld-ascendant.backerkit.com/faq

They said "games" (plural), i.e. both UU1 and UU2.

And here is UA's writer in a year later in March 2016:

"I think/hope you’ll find both the story and narrative system to be pretty compelling. There are also some deep hooks into the original games." (emphasis added)

https://forums.otherside-e.com/t/underworld-ascendant-plot/9124/3

He says "games" (plural), i.e. both UU1 and UU2.

They clearly used Ultima content/lore as a carrot to advertise their kickstarter, and that was a complete fraud.
 

Nyast

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MasterLobar is obviously wrong. Here is proof: there are skeletons in the original Underworld. There are skeletons in Ascendent. Therefore they did use some of Ultima's Lore. CQFD. They didn't lie

Nah, I'm boiling with rage too..
 

Curratum

Guest
What can you do, though? OS are just a bunch of horrible, lying cunts and we're all fucked and that's the end of it.

The best thing you can do is police any future projects they try to push if they don't dissolve and adequately inform anyone interested what happened with UA.
 

MasterLobar

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https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/#c1679189548075815627

The last day we could launch in 2018 was November 15, and we had to take it or else give up on the project entirely.

WHY???

Sam, if you're reading the RPGcodex - and as a good community manager I assume you do - why this arbitrary deadline?

You mentioned it several times while always avoiding to give any explanation. You are hiding something.

I'd say one of the key takeaways from UA's development is [...] being more honest with the community.

Oh really? So, now you have a chance. Explain the arbitrary deadline to us.
 

MasterLobar

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Those are probably demands from 505, no?

Why would 505 make such a demand?

The community manager has admitted that OS owners and management have been paying for everything since October 2018.

See my post from a while ago:

Community manager confirms OS owners/management are paying for UA development and updates since October 2018. So 505 pulled the plug before launch.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1769259642872066599/#c1769259642883439686

Remember the SEC filing I posted the other day which shows a total of 6 investors (almost certainly OS owners and management) poured $3.5 million in the company last fall. The "Date of First Sale" is 2018-08-31, so almost exactly the point where OS has now confirmed 505 stopped their funding.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1756400/000156761918004482/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml

That confirms what I suspected all along: OS owners/management paid for all the updates and the console version (and even the last month of development) themselves.

She affirmed this in the post above

upper management took some large risks investing personal funds into the game to even delay launch and give us more time.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/#c1679189548075815627

505 isn't providing any funding since September 2018. They knew the game was unfinished. Why would they set an arbitrary deadline for launch and not allow OS to finish the game with their own money? (which is what they are doing now)

Just two more weeks and they could have had a functioning save system:

The Save Anywhere system took nearly two entire weeks of one engineer's time to do

https://steamcommunity.com/app/692840/discussions/0/1679189548072319990/#c1679189548075815627

It doesn't make any sense for 505 to force OS to launch the game in such a terrible state and instead of giving them a bit more time to iron out at least the worst bugs (without any additional money from 505).

OS should better come clean and tell us what the real reason for launching in November was.
 
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Gord

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It wouldn't be the first time a publisher made a studio launch their game in a clearly unfinished state (or a studio did so themselves) even when only a few more weeks might have made a big impact (not that it would have saved UA).
 
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MasterLobar

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In these cases, the studio usually asks the publisher to provide more funding to finish the game.

In the case of UA, OS agreed to do everything with their own money and they already had provided the necessary capital with the series A stock sale in August.

It wouldn't have cost 505 a penny to let OS work on the game for a few more weeks.

The launch deadline story doesn't make ANY SENSE AT ALL. The community manager is lying (or the management is lying to her and she parrots these lies in the forums).
 
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Gord

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I don't see much reason in these speculations, as we clearly lack necessary informations to reach any meaningful conclusion.
Whatever the ultimate reason, they were forced (or felt forced) to release in that sorry state.
OTOH, even almost half a year and 3 major updates later UA is still nowhere near what it should have been, so...
 

Nyast

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Jan 12, 2014
Messages
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MasterLobar: they already answered that many times. The reason they didn't want to delay is because they thought the game was in a good place to launch. They thought it was great. They didn't hear, for some weird unexplained reason, all their backer's complaints. They genuinely thought the launch would go well. You have no reason to delay when you think the game is ready and good !

Yeaaaaah right, hard to believe, but that's the official explanation.
 

Gord

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Although some people from OS repeatedly admitted that it wasn't ready in various forum discussions.
Apparently not all of them got the memo regarding the official line of communication.

At times OS really gives the impression that the studio is pretty disordered - which might add to explain some of the mess UA ended up in.
 

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