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RPG Codex's Best RPGs - 2019 - RESULTS ARE OUT!

Void_Pickle

Educated
Joined
Apr 2, 2019
Messages
60
My one gripe is that most people vote Fallout 2 / Gothic 2 / M&M 6

instead of

Fallout 1 / Gothic 1 / M&M 7

Why would you choose the bloated, gets boring halfway through version over the short but tighter quality version ?

It seems to me that most have voted for Fallout 1 (as they should).

MMVII felt shorter to me, if anything. Ultimately it gets my vote because I didn't quite finish VI (thanks, now-defunct laptop).

Not sure what to tell you on Gothic 2. It's just better.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
3,716
Location
Gypsystan
because M&M7 is shit while M&M6 is not, fuck you

The gameplay is the same. 7's restriction on skill mastery reins in the power curve a bit and the game is shorter. Even so, you can curbstomp everything two thirds into the game, way earlier if you abuse shit. The best part of M&M to me is struggling for cash and skill points in the beginning to mid-game. After that all the challenge falls apart.

In 6 you're what ? one quarter into the game before you're just sweeping maps and dungeons on auto pilot ? and the game is fukc huge. what's the point ?
 

T. Reich

Arcane
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
2,714
Location
not even close
My one gripe is that most people vote Fallout 2 / Gothic 2 / M&M 6

instead of

Fallout 1 / Gothic 1 / M&M 7

Why would you choose the bloated, gets boring halfway through version over the short but tighter quality version ?

F1 is the only valid preference in terms of overall quality superiority.
G2NotR is superior to G1 in every way. Including pacing and content padding.
MM7's only advantage over MM6 is having refined the rather raw role-playing system introduced in MM6. MM7 is vastly inferior in every other way except combat and itemisation (which haven't changed) - exploration (the biggest factor in MM series), lore and questing, magic system, even GRAPHICS, of all things (just compare the dungeon visuals in MM6 vs MM7). The only reasons why MM7 is more popular is because it's much easier, and because it's heavily tied in with insanely popular HoMM3 in terms of lore and graphics.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
1,878,404
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Djibouti
Also the prison colony is a much more interesting and cutthroat setting than the G2 mainland, which is why the NotR expansion brings it back.

The prison colony was present in base G2. NotR adds the ancient valley with the big bandit camp and not-aztec temples.
 

Rinslin Merwind

Erudite
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Nov 4, 2017
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Sea of Eventualities
So many arrogant cunts who thinks that people should vote Fallout 1 over Fallout 2 in poll, probably I should vote for Fallout 2 just to piss these snobby twats. Seriously, people have intelligence of average two headed brahmin, but pretend like they experts in cRPG, while all their arguments absolutely subjective and taken out of their asses. I played both and all that I remember from first Fallout is final boss and running around like mad idiot, because time was running out. Meanwhile, when I think about Fallout 2, I can remember handful of characters, many locations, final boss and many other things. It's like some people on codex decided to be more autistic than actual people who suffer from this condition and push it through end, despite how many years has passed and how shitty Fallout games from Bethesda.
 

Rinslin Merwind

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
1,274
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Sea of Eventualities
I just answered on their subjective arguments with my subjective argument. Just to demonstrate how their "valid quality preference" can be ruined by simple subjective argument from other side of barricades.

Probably, I should have written comment that includes clarification why I bash them for subjectivity and bring my subjective comment. But I forgot.
 

Lord Andre

Arcane
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Messages
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Gypsystan
F1 is the only valid preference in terms of overall quality superiority.
Duh.

G2NotR is superior to G1 in every way. Including pacing and content padding.

Yes and no. G2NotR has insane spikes in quality but also terrible lows.

The city itself is pure incline but the Valley of Mines is utter garbage. Everything after Valley of Mines is utter garbage.
The expansion additions story/lore wise are cool in the beginning but once you travel through the portal all NPCs from the main map forget it ever existed.

Making the game harder is awesome of course but it also introduces some subpar shit to the character system. Meta-gaming stat allocation and stat boosters is one.
Turning normal damage into grazes and critical hits into normal damage is another. What is this shit ? Pillars of Eternity? I need to increase a number and pray to RNGesus that my normal damage procs ? Shit idea.

G1 also has endgame problems but at least it's over quicker.

In both games you become overpowered and finish all the cool quests roughly at same time leaving nothing but a slog to the end from that point on. The difference is that in G1 that slog is about 3-4 times shorter.

MM7's only advantage over MM6 is having refined the rather raw role-playing system introduced in MM6. MM7 is vastly inferior in every other way except combat and itemisation (which haven't changed) - exploration (the biggest factor in MM series), lore and questing, magic system, even GRAPHICS, of all things (just compare the dungeon visuals in MM6 vs MM7). The only reasons why MM7 is more popular is because it's much easier, and because it's heavily tied in with insanely popular HoMM3 in terms of lore and graphics.

This is just nostalgia bullshit. Exploration is over once you can cast fly. This happens way earlier in 6. Where's the great exploration in sweeping fog of war off the mini map while raining death from above.
Lore and questing ? Nigga please. Sure there's some cool shit here and there (mostly leaning on the established lore) but there's a lot of generic fetch quests that serve no purpose but being filler.
Magic system? Are you snorting coke? In 7 there is at least a short period where you have to use low level spells creatively, in 6 the main plot hasn't even really started and you have most nukes at the ready. Sheet.

Graphics are more coherent in setting a tone in 6. True.

And finally we arrive at Codex favorite meme - "M&M6 dungeons were the shitz! M&M7 dungeons are the suxzors"

This is a nuanced discussion. The best dungeons of 6 are better than the best of 7. However there are dungeons in 7 that have a better visual theme going for them than any in 6. Some dungeons are really small in 7, you can barely call them dungeons. Some dungeons in 6 are just long for the sake of being long become boring.
Overall M&M6 comes on top on this point but not enough (for me) to disregards how fast the challenge fades away leaving only 'go through the motions' boring gameplay.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
So many arrogant cunts who thinks that people should vote Fallout 1 over Fallout 2 in poll, probably I should vote for Fallout 2 just to piss these snobby twats. Seriously, people have intelligence of average two headed brahmin, but pretend like they experts in cRPG, while all their arguments absolutely subjective and taken out of their asses. I played both and all that I remember from first Fallout is final boss and running around like mad idiot, because time was running out. Meanwhile, when I think about Fallout 2, I can remember handful of characters, many locations, final boss and many other things. It's like some people on codex decided to be more autistic than actual people who suffer from this condition and push it through end, despite how many years has passed and how shitty Fallout games from Bethesda.
Are you serious? I prefer Fallout 2 from 1 so it's not that i disagree with the spirit of your post, but having trouble with the timer in Fallout? What the fuck???
 

Rinslin Merwind

Erudite
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
1,274
Location
Sea of Eventualities
Are you serious? I prefer Fallout 2 from 1 so it's not that i disagree with the spirit of your post, but having trouble with the timer in Fallout? What the fuck???
I was much less experienced in games in general when played first Fallout and apparently I also forgot about timer at all. It's sound stupid, but I can't remember how exactly I managed to fuck up time. Only that at some point I was rushing towards final boss, because I remembered about timer.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Are you serious? I prefer Fallout 2 from 1 so it's not that i disagree with the spirit of your post, but having trouble with the timer in Fallout? What the fuck???
I was much less experienced in games in general when played first Fallout and apparently I also forgot about timer at all. It's sound stupid, but I can't remember how exactly I managed to fuck up time. Only that at some point I was rushing towards final boss, because I remembered about timer.
You must be one of those that realy go out of their way to explore every single inch of the map and fuck around in games. I remember thinking while playing Fallout that the person designing the timer propably didn't played his own game, that there would be not a single chance someone run out of time.
 

janjetina

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
14,231
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
Torment: Tides of Numenera
I just answered on their subjective arguments with my subjective argument. Just to demonstrate how their "valid quality preference" can be ruined by simple subjective argument from other side of barricades.

Probably, I should have written comment that includes clarification why I bash them for subjectivity and bring my subjective comment. But I forgot.

Are they? Fact of disagreement has no bearing on whether the criterion they employ is subjective or not (I am not making a judgement whether that is the case here or not). Someone could subjectively (but not rationally) disagree that 2+2=4, but 2+2=4 is objectively true. You need to make an objective argument from the first principles, or at least an argument from the common principles interlocutors agree on.

For example, they might make an obvious objective claim that one RPG is better than another due to conforming more faithfully to an essence of an RPG and go on to defend this claim. The question of whether there is such a thing as essence of an RPG (i.e. if that which makes something to be an RPG is real, or just a product of convention) is a basic one, and the follow-up question of what that essence is (i.e. what exactly makes something an RPG, the age old "What is an RPG" question) is a separate discussion that must follow.
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
19,110
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
Once Caves of Qud is finished, it could become the roguelike that makes it into the Top 50. Even the Early Access version seems to be miles above any other roguelike so far.
Caves of Qud does have at least one quest line which could be solved by talking and investigating environments.
Kith and Kin, where you must solve a case where something was stolen.
It is optional and you could just kill original suspect(s).
 

Rinslin Merwind

Erudite
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
1,274
Location
Sea of Eventualities
Are they? Fact of disagreement has no bearing on whether the criterion they employ is subjective or not (I am not making a judgement whether that is the case here or not). Someone could subjectively (but not rationally) disagree that 2+2=4, but 2+2=4 is objectively true. You need to make an objective argument from the first principles, or at least an argument from the common principles interlocutors agree on.

For example, they might make an obvious objective claim that one RPG is better than another due to conforming more faithfully to an essence of an RPG and go on to defend this claim. The question of whether there is such a thing as essence of an RPG (i.e. if that which makes something to be an RPG is real, or just a product of convention) is a basic one, and the follow-up question of what that essence is (i.e. what exactly makes something an RPG, the age old "What is an RPG" question) is a separate discussion that must follow.
The problem is that "obvious", "better" is subjective too. Since one thing can be obvious to one person, meanwhile for other people it might not be so easy (reason can be any - from genetic to cultural heritage). And "better" also subjective, since it depends from perspective of viewer on matter. Even if we solved a Grand Mystery of RPG genre (as you said "whats an RPG" question), it still be debatable which Fallout is better since they VERY similar to each other. And NO, we don't need another pointless debate on thousands pages (although this thread is boring anyway, so maybe we indeed need to derail it).
I understand that people have different tastes, and it's ok. But the thing is that in current situation happened because some people just don't value fact that there still exist people who remember pre-Bethesda Fallouts and upset that people voted "wrong", meanwhile poll have more serious issues - no down voting and pool of points is too small. If these people fear for classics in the top, they should fight Twitcher and Souls lobby, not squabbling between each other.
You must be one of those that realy go out of their way to explore every single inch of the map and fuck around in games.
Indeed I am.
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,510
Location
The Desert Wasteland
I'm still counting the votes, but it's interesting how the Codex has a very specific taste on average... once again there's not a single roguelike or Diablo-clone on the Top 50.

I get the Diablo hate, but why no love for roguelikes, Codexia?

I very nearly voted for Zangband, but it's too obscure here, wasted vote. There are so many roguelikes, just too many factors working against them in the way votes are counted. Diablo I is my roguelike vote, which is also probably a wasted vote here, but I don't care.

If I could vote 'Roguelike' as a catchall for the genre, and knew it would be counted, I would have given it at least 2 points.
 
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janjetina

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
14,231
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
Torment: Tides of Numenera
The problem is that "obvious", "better" is subjective too. Since one thing can be obvious to one person, meanwhile for other people it might not be so easy (reason can be any - from genetic to cultural heritage). And "better" also subjective, since it depends from perspective of viewer on matter.

Well, obvious is a bit weak, but you cannot make a reasonable argument against objectivity of the claim based on correspondence to essence that does not reduce to nominalism, which is incoherent and absurd. Better is nowhere near subjective, because it relies on notion of Good, which is (loosely speaking) defined by correspondence to an essence of a thing. By a thing being what it is (by virtue of its essence), a standard that determines how good it is (by some correspondence to his essence) is defined. We judge how good an individual thing is by apprehending the objective reality of conformation to its essence, and while we can be mistaken about it, it does not follow that there is no such reality, or that it is not possible to be correct about it.
Good here is understood in an analogous manner when applied to things (objects) of different kind.
But you are right, this is not the place for this debate, and we'll leave it at the fact of disagreement.
 
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Kitchen Utensil

Guest
Codex should derive its top RPGs exclusively from negative votes.
"Codex' least shitty RPGs of all time"!
 

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