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AoD recieves undue praise and favouritism from the Codex

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Your specific situation(never having talked to Antidas) is extremely niche and expecting a game that is already so very reactive to perfectly account for every possible outcome is simply asking too much imo.
That's not my complaint, though. The fact that I'd never met the guy just exacerbated the core issue of me being forced out of choosing which ruler to support via a pointless roadblock right at the end of the game.
 
Joined
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I think it is fair to say that Vault Dweller failed as a designer as to those unhappy players because he wasn't able to teach them how to view the game in a light where it became fun rather than frustrating. But the core concept of a highly reactive, build-service-oriented game is not a bad one IMO.

How can a person successfully teach players design principle that is 180% counter to what their have been experiencing until this point?
 

toro

Arcane
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Messages
14,089
I think it is fair to say that Vault Dweller failed as a designer as to those unhappy players because he wasn't able to teach them how to view the game in a light where it became fun rather than frustrating. But the core concept of a highly reactive, build-service-oriented game is not a bad one IMO.

How can a person successfully teach players design principle that is 180% counter to what their have been experiencing until this point?

:smug:

:butthurt:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,035
How are you blocked from completing the game? Any remotely non-retarded build can complete the game. It's getting a good ending that requires some planning, foresight and knowledge of the game's systems.

I got stuck in the fort where you're not allowed to leave unless you convince three generals to support you. I asked online, and was told there's no way to progress with my four maxed non-combat skills.
You need two votes out of three and only one vote requires combat. You need Streetwise 5 or 5 pounds of blue steel to get Diocletus' vote and Persuasion 5 and Streetwise 5 to get Farro's vote.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
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I think it is fair to say that Vault Dweller failed as a designer as to those unhappy players because he wasn't able to teach them how to view the game in a light where it became fun rather than frustrating. But the core concept of a highly reactive, build-service-oriented game is not a bad one IMO.

How can a person successfully teach players design principle that is 180% counter to what their have been experiencing until this point?
I am not a tenth the designer Vince is, so if he couldn't crack it, I'm not sure I can.

That said, if I had to, I would probably do two things:

(1) Have an up front tutorial about character building in the game. When early choices in a game have heavy ramifications, and the choices depend on some novel system, it's reasonable to just tell the player what's going on, rather than following the normal rule that it's most fun to learn by doing.

(2) More radically, I would probably complete change the way non-combat skills work. I'm sure this would cause a bazillion problems. Basically what I would do is rename the social skill stat pool something other than XP or skill points (I can't remember what it's called now), something like "Potential." When confronted with a skill check in a dialogue situation, rather than indicating the required threshold, it would indicate the *cost* to pass that skill check. You would then click the option, and that would deplete you potential and permanently raise that skill (thereby lowering or eliminating future costs with the same skill). At a minimum, this would require some thoughtfulness on things like how the barter skill works shopping (it might be that you either win or lose bartering with a shopkeeper, and you can choose to barter via dialogue with him before the shop window opens). But I think it would mostly solve this problem, since you wouldn't need to do a dialogue, see what thresholds you need, reload, allocate stats, replay dialogue. I think it would also better communicate to players that this is the appropriate way to play. Indeed, it would mostly force them to play that way since (as currently theorized) you wouldn't even allocate social skills outside of combat. I guess maybe that could remain an option (which would resolve my barter concern above).
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
lol no.
Because of where the script takes you.
AoD has a couple of paths and the only real choice is going down on one of them. That's it. Muh choices.

I like the game but that part is true.

AoD has plenty of choices, yes, but they all lead you down relatively narrow paths - it's why people tend to call it a "CYOA RPG". You pick a choice, then you're railroaded down into the next choice, and so on. This only stops at the last chapter of the game where you're more free to roam the world at your own pace and make decisions as you naturally come upon them.

But the majority of the faction storylines is:
- tell them you wanna join
- do one or two quests for them in Teron
- if you joined them, you don't get the option to betray them and work for a different faction instead
- you get choices but these are all just within their own little path; you can't join the Legion then defect to the Assassins after two quests, for example; if you join a faction you gotta stick with it and only get betrayal options when they're presented to you within the faction questline

It ends up feeling railroaded because the player only gets to make choices when they're presented to him. Rather than following his own path through the game on his own initiative, the player is merely reacting to the situations the game throws at him, at the time the situations are thrown at him. The player can't, for example, make some grand plan where he makes a new character and says "All right, I will join the Commercium, rise up in their ranks, then steal everything they got in their bank and join the thieves, becoming a well-respected member of the thieves' guild, but I gotta be careful or the Commercium will fuck me up if they find out!"

AoD has the kinds of factions and faction relationships that would lend themselves perfectly to such a structure, where you can double-cross factions and play them out against each other, etc. But that's not what AoD does. It locks you into certain paths and only gives you a certain amount of choices within that path. You're not free to just switch sides at any point - or switch sides at all, even, unless the game presents you with a specific side-switching choice at a specific moment. This makes the game feel somewhat railroaded despite the high amount of choices and branches for the player.

Of course, it makes sense that the player can't join all the factions at once, but locking yourself permanently into one faction path without the opportunity to betray them at some point of your own initiative (rather than as a reaction to a specific situation in a specific quest) makes each faction feel like its own little CYOA branch, rather than what Fallout does with its more open approach to the plot.
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
People talking out of their ass now. Game constantly offers opportunities to switch sides and loyalties. Most of complaints here derrive from butthurt because game didn't scale to your level.
 
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Fuck AoD

Dungeon Rats > AoD

I'm only half joking. AoD is fine, but I will agree with people saying it's a bit railroady. I don't mind that your char build has real consequences (in fact I wish more games would commit to that), but I think a more open world would have served the game better. Dungeon Rats is a completely different experience and let's you drill in on the combat and have good crunchy tactical fun.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The game pits you in several situations where if you have not specced a minimum of points in "XY" skill you're dead, and have to start over, and does this for purely the sake "being hardcore". ... You're not playing the way you want to in this game; you are playing the way you must do to succeed. That is, you're not role-playing your character, rather you're manipulating your character's stats once you've found out through trial and error what stats your character needs to have to progress.

This is the only legitimate complaint and it's a weakness of hard gated design - ie "you need 18 skill in lock picks and anything less is a fail" instead of "the higher your lock pick skill is, the less resources you need to succeed."

Or the problem in "you need the lockpick skill in order to succeed because it's the only way forward".

Hard gating isn't the issue if there are multiple ways to bypass an obstacle. Maybe the door can be bashed open with a high strength, but it makes noise, attracting the guards. Maybe you can find a hidden secret door as an alternate entry but only with high perception. Maybe you can use a gunpowder bomb to blow open the door but it makes even more noise than smashing and bombs are expensive. Maybe a high acrobatics skill allows you to bypass the door entirely and climb up through a window. Or maybe the quest isn't mandatory for finishing the game and you can skip getting through that door entirely - but you will leave an important item behind that will close off one way to win the game, or make the final fight much harder.

Just give different possible solutions to the player, so every type of character can progress, with some options being better than the others (lockpicking or finding the secret door are better than bashing or bombing the door) - or make the quest not mandatory for victory.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
People talking out of their ass now. Game constantly offers opportunities to switch sides and loyalties. Most of complaints here derrive from butthurt because game didn't scale to your level.

These opportunities are game-driven though, not player-driven.

You can't just decide spontaneously "You know what, I hate my current faction. I'll march over to their rivals and sell them out for a decent reward.", you can only decide such a thing when the current quest you're in offers you the opportunity.
 

Saduj

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Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,552
In every RPG that has a story, the story is limited by what was written/scripted by the people who made the game. AOD is hardly unique in that regard. The difference between AOD and most other story driven RPGs is that in AOD you're probably working for one faction the entire game (yes, I know you don't have to) where in other games you meet new factions in every location and temporarily ally with one or the other before moving on to a new location. The outcomes of those choices are still limited by what has been written into the game.
 

circuit breaker

Educated
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Apr 27, 2019
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I can understand why AoD is praised.

I appreciated the atmosphere, the music, the brutal but satisfying combat, the interesting characters and locations.

I did not appreciate that it felt like playing real life - where the focus of your character also has to be narrow. You can't be Ultimate Badass, you will suck at something.
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
These opportunities are game-driven though, not player-driven.

You can't just decide spontaneously "You know what, I hate my current faction. I'll march over to their rivals and sell them out for a decent reward.", you can only decide such a thing when the current quest you're in offers you the opportunity.
Almost as if game waits for an opportunity for your character to be in a position of power / value to the opposing faction for them to consider you worthy of conspiring with. Crazy.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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The game pits you in several situations where if you have not specced a minimum of points in "XY" skill you're dead, and have to start over, and does this for purely the sake "being hardcore". ... You're not playing the way you want to in this game; you are playing the way you must do to succeed. That is, you're not role-playing your character, rather you're manipulating your character's stats once you've found out through trial and error what stats your character needs to have to progress.

This is the only legitimate complaint and it's a weakness of hard gated design - ie "you need 18 skill in lock picks and anything less is a fail" instead of "the higher your lock pick skill is, the less resources you need to succeed."

Or the problem in "you need the lockpick skill in order to succeed because it's the only way forward".
For example?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
These opportunities are game-driven though, not player-driven.

You can't just decide spontaneously "You know what, I hate my current faction. I'll march over to their rivals and sell them out for a decent reward.", you can only decide such a thing when the current quest you're in offers you the opportunity.
Almost as if game waits for an opportunity for your character to be in a position of power / value to the opposing faction for them to consider you worthy of conspiring with. Crazy.

Which ultimately leads to the feeling of it being railroaded, due to the decision only being available at one specific point in the game rather than being available during a certain timeframe.

Say, once you reached rank X and have access to some faction secrets, you might want to decide to defect and other factions would have great interest in gaining you.

Yet you don't get that option, you only get such decisions when you encounter certain quest situations. Only during that specific situation you can make that choice.

Ultimately, it makes the game feel less player-driven and more like a CYOA because of how it's all handled.

How AoD does a quest and choices:
Tough girl who leads the assassins tell you that your next assassination target is an influential noblewoman. The hit is planned for tonight. You start the quest by telling her you're ready.
Once you tell her you're ready, you get to enter the noblewoman's mansion. The choice on whether to barge in frontally, diguise yourself, or climb in through the balcony is offered as three dialogue choices with skill checks attached to them.
Once inside, you don't get to move around freely. Instead you get to the next CYOA style choice after confronting the noblewoman. She offers you to betray the assassins and work with her instead. You can accept her offer or reject it and kill her.

Essentially, the quest structure is:
A: tell your boss you're ready
B: decide on the infiltration method
C: depending on the infiltration method, you will reach the target in a different way; now choose between defecting or doing your job
D: be teleported back to your headquarters after finishing the quest

AoD's problem is a structural problem. Yes, the game is still fun. Yes, it does offer a lot of choice. But since everything in-between the choices is trimmed out, it still manages to feel railroaded.

How I would do that very same quest:
Tough girl who leads the assassins tells you your next target. She says the hit has to be performed soon, so you only have three days to do it.
It's up to you whether to go in during the day or at night. During the day there will be more passersby on the streets. During the night there will be more guards in the manor. Both approaches come with their own benefits and drawbacks. It's up to you when to strike, depending on what you find more or less risky. Since the Boatmen are kind of a semi-legal organisation, you wouldn't get in trouble with the law for causing a public ruckus, but maybe you'll get less of a reward if you do, so striking during the day when you can be seen by passersby might be a bad idea. But during the night there will be more guards inside so it will be harder.
You decide on how to approach the target on your own initiative. If you learned that the noblewoman keeps a bunch of combat-trained harem girls as bodyguards, and you play a female character, you can wear that harem style dress and a veil to attempt to disguise yourself. When you enter the manor and are stopped by guards, you get a skill check on your disguise skill to see whether they realize you are just a fake or not. If you have a rope with grappling hook in your inventory and approach the balcony, you can click on the balcony to interact with it and use the rope to get up rather than walking through the building. Instead of the game giving you "use a disguise" or "climb up the blacony" as choices in a CYOA style dialogue segment, you have to come up with these solutions on your own. If you wanna disguise yourself, you just put on the appropriate clothes and when guards spot you, you get to make a diguise check. If you wanna climb up the balcony you need to have a grappling hook and need to approach the balcony on your own to check if that is an option.

This approach would be more player-driven. The player has to explore the place, the player has to come up with the alternate solutions to the quest that involve more trickery than just barging in through the front door. Rather than just handing the player all possible options as dialogue choices, the options have to be explored by active gameplay and it will feel less railroaded despite giving the exact same amount of choices. They're just structured and presented differently.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The game pits you in several situations where if you have not specced a minimum of points in "XY" skill you're dead, and have to start over, and does this for purely the sake "being hardcore". ... You're not playing the way you want to in this game; you are playing the way you must do to succeed. That is, you're not role-playing your character, rather you're manipulating your character's stats once you've found out through trial and error what stats your character needs to have to progress.

This is the only legitimate complaint and it's a weakness of hard gated design - ie "you need 18 skill in lock picks and anything less is a fail" instead of "the higher your lock pick skill is, the less resources you need to succeed."

Or the problem in "you need the lockpick skill in order to succeed because it's the only way forward".
For example?

Nah, this one was just a response to Tavernking's general criticism of hard gating rather than to anything specific in AoD.

Personally I don't mind hard gating, and thing hard skillchecks are a decent choice and better than dice rolls which encourage savescumming and re-trying the same check over and over until it works, rather than encouraging clever character builds.
As long as there's always an alternative way out of a situation, or the possibility of progress despite failure (that is, fail states beyond "game over").

AoD does a well enough job at providing different approaches for different character builds even within each of the narrow faction paths. I even remember some quests where you can fuck up and still progress, which is really cool.

Hard skill checks > dice roll skill checks. That's a good part of AoD and one I hope you'll keep for Colony Ship RPG.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
People talking out of their ass now. Game constantly offers opportunities to switch sides and loyalties. Most of complaints here derrive from butthurt because game didn't scale to your level.

Yeah, when the script calls for it. If you don't do it then, it's gone.
But apparently a fork in the road is a "hardcore" choice. :lol:

Read what JarlFrank said.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
My feelings towards AoD at this point are the same as those I have towards games like The Witcher 3: there are a bunch of writing and lore tidbits I'd still like to see, but I can't be arsed to go through the tedium involved in unlocking them. It's a shame, because playing Ancient Aliens Archaeologist was the thing I enjoyed the most about the game. I might follow a guide to go to the Abyss at some point.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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The codex will praise anything that's perceived as being hardcore, whether it's actually good or not.

MedKzcs.jpg
 

ScrotumBroth

Arcane
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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Which ultimately leads to the feeling of it being railroaded, due to the decision only being available at one specific point in the game rather than being available during a certain timeframe.

Say, once you reached rank X and have access to some faction secrets, you might want to decide to defect and other factions would have great interest in gaining you.

Yet you don't get that option, you only get such decisions when you encounter certain quest situations. Only during that specific situation you can make that choice.

Ultimately, it makes the game feel less player-driven and more like a CYOA because of how it's all handled.

How AoD does a quest and choices:
Tough girl who leads the assassins tell you that your next assassination target is an influential noblewoman. The hit is planned for tonight. You start the quest by telling her you're ready.
Once you tell her you're ready, you get to enter the noblewoman's mansion. The choice on whether to barge in frontally, diguise yourself, or climb in through the balcony is offered as three dialogue choices with skill checks attached to them.
Once inside, you don't get to move around freely. Instead you get to the next CYOA style choice after confronting the noblewoman. She offers you to betray the assassins and work with her instead. You can accept her offer or reject it and kill her.

Essentially, the quest structure is:
A: tell your boss you're ready
B: decide on the infiltration method
C: depending on the infiltration method, you will reach the target in a different way; now choose between defecting or doing your job
D: be teleported back to your headquarters after finishing the quest

AoD's problem is a structural problem. Yes, the game is still fun. Yes, it does offer a lot of choice. But since everything in-between the choices is trimmed out, it still manages to feel railroaded.

How I would do that very same quest:
Tough girl who leads the assassins tells you your next target. She says the hit has to be performed soon, so you only have three days to do it.
It's up to you whether to go in during the day or at night. During the day there will be more passersby on the streets. During the night there will be more guards in the manor. Both approaches come with their own benefits and drawbacks. It's up to you when to strike, depending on what you find more or less risky. Since the Boatmen are kind of a semi-legal organisation, you wouldn't get in trouble with the law for causing a public ruckus, but maybe you'll get less of a reward if you do, so striking during the day when you can be seen by passersby might be a bad idea. But during the night there will be more guards inside so it will be harder.
You decide on how to approach the target on your own initiative. If you learned that the noblewoman keeps a bunch of combat-trained harem girls as bodyguards, and you play a female character, you can wear that harem style dress and a veil to attempt to disguise yourself. When you enter the manor and are stopped by guards, you get a skill check on your disguise skill to see whether they realize you are just a fake or not. If you have a rope with grappling hook in your inventory and approach the balcony, you can click on the balcony to interact with it and use the rope to get up rather than walking through the building. Instead of the game giving you "use a disguise" or "climb up the blacony" as choices in a CYOA style dialogue segment, you have to come up with these solutions on your own. If you wanna disguise yourself, you just put on the appropriate clothes and when guards spot you, you get to make a diguise check. If you wanna climb up the balcony you need to have a grappling hook and need to approach the balcony on your own to check if that is an option.

This approach would be more player-driven. The player has to explore the place, the player has to come up with the alternate solutions to the quest that involve more trickery than just barging in through the front door. Rather than just handing the player all possible options as dialogue choices, the options have to be explored by active gameplay and it will feel less railroaded despite giving the exact same amount of choices. They're just structured and presented differently.
So you want to be able to click and roam around, like it's an action game, with NPC behaving like they have a life. I mean, that's a very big ask from this type of game, with what I assume wasn't overabundant budget. Even original Fallouts didn't have that level of environmental fluidity, every major mission checkpoint was heavily scripted in comparison to open world with static NPCs.

To script and put in motion how you've described it every single scenario in AoD would take the budget of EA to support it. There is just too many variations, I don't know if you're aware of just how many there are. Like, it trumps most classics in that regard.

I personally prefer shortcuts to and from quest locations, because why would I want to spend time walking and traveling through load screens.
Choosing approach by action instead dialogue option would be nice, but it seems a silly reason to get stuck on in a game that's clearly not AAA. Also, this is only present sometimes, plenty of times you can do it by action.

Another point I wanted to address, unlike Skyrim, the world, major players and events unfold and what player does carries consequences. This is why there are restrictions of travel in early game and mini endings. I was pissed off at first, but then I accepted that's just the way game meta works, and once you learn meta, game becomes beautiful and easy to appreciate.

If you have issues it's not fully open world, go play Witcher 3.

Fallout 1,2, PST etc all required players to learn meta, AoD is just more annoying than most. Toughen up son.
 
Self-Ejected

Safav Hamon

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot The Real Fanboy
Joined
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Messages
2,141
Nah, this one was just a response to Tavernking's general criticism of hard gating rather than to anything specific in AoD.

Personally I don't mind hard gating, and thing hard skillchecks are a decent choice and better than dice rolls which encourage savescumming and re-trying the same check over and over until it works, rather than encouraging clever character builds.
As long as there's always an alternative way out of a situation, or the possibility of progress despite failure (that is, fail states beyond "game over")

Many PnP games use a combination of both. You need to pass a difficulty check, and then get a percentage chance based on how much you exceed the difficulty level.
 

AbounI

Colonist
Patron
Joined
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Messages
1,050
One thing most people seems to forget is that AoD is a text based game and not a free exploration game based, so it's easier to feel railroaded. Imagine you're approaching the teron mining outpost as if you were exploring freely the aera. What could make you think to disguise as Sorhab or a loremaster, what could make you think to approach the barricade from where you can try to sneak inside the mine, what could make you think to approach as if you were bringing the Aurelians some food and wine you previously poisonned, what could make you think to ask Esbenus to deal with them for you if not the text based structure ? I mean I'm pretty sure that if the game was played as a traditionnal 3d cRPG focused on the explore freely your environment, most people will try to enter this mine in the same way : fight or die ! Instead, how the game is presented, it also gives us various way to handle situations we would not think about. And thinking to every way to handle a situation is quite impossible, so some may lack in the course of the game or in front of specific situations, I think about Sunfire's mods adding more ways to handle them such as the respirator during the thief questline when you're supposed to get the jar in the Commercium HQ in Maadoran. More variety to handle quests to feel less railroaded too. But more scripts to manage in the other side. Assuming how hard to write were some of them, just recently found a major scripting issue that can litterally break the game, I can't blame the game for the way it has to be played and the feeling it can gives to the player :
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,6899.msg154728.html#msg154728

Don't be too harsh for ITS first game. The game has some defaults, that's sure, but huge qualities too in its writing.
 

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