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AoD recieves undue praise and favouritism from the Codex

cruelio

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At first this game can be charming, but the charm quickly wears off as you stay longer.
On top of this, there are actually very few quests. There are a bunch of alternatives, but any given character type has only a few that they can reasonably do. A smooth-talker, for example, cannot do the heavy combat scenarios. Nor vice versa. And aside from the quest givers, some merchants and a few thief targets, the rest of the population are mannequins. Exploration is minimal and the game is on rails.

I did a lets play of the game where I won with a talky character with 0 combat skills that still did a ton of combat by using every bomb / napalm in the game. Pretty good game that can accommodate that sort of thing.
 
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Safav Hamon

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Age of Decadence punishes you for not building your character the ways Vince envisioned. There are obvious archetypes that you're meant to play as, and builds outside those archetypes are not well accounted for.

Fallout rewards specialized builds with cool options, but lets you play however you want and doesn't punish you for it. Every build is not only designed to be viable, but fun as well.
 
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Tigranes

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Putting points in something lets me pass relevant checks, while not putting enough points means not passing

"Reward" or "punish"? DISCUSS!
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Devs didn't accommodate the most retarded path I can imagine for the sake of having it in game, railroaded or not?
 
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Sacred82

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Putting points in something lets me pass relevant checks, while not putting enough points means not passing

"Reward" or "punish"? DISCUSS!

neither, it's just a chore.

I don't want to do too much injustice to AoD as its flaws turned me off before I could see all there is to see, but this was exactly the impression I got. "Put points into X to proceed along the pre-ordained path, sorry sucker, not enough points there lul". No thought or creativity required - or rewarded - on the player's side.

The one thing that demanded thought and analysis was, ironically, the combat system, not anything else. Which is fine and dandy if you're playing a freeform tactics game, not an RPG.

Ultimately it seems AoD fell prey to a lack of clear vision. The old RPG disease.
 
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Safav Hamon

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Many of the problems with AoD's design are contrasted by Chris Avellone in an interview he did with Vince Dweller.

Chris said:
...you want to design systems that allow for choices and consequences and avoid special case scripting when you can, as the former gives the player more freedom and makes the experience more fun

Chris said:
The speech path should present more than a skill check challenge - there needs to be some other obstacle associated with it.

Chris said:
In any event - using Speech or other dialogue skill is also a mechanic you need to showcase early in the game to play fair with the player so that they know what kind of world they've stepped into. The player needed to see in the first area how their skills could shine and how they could be used to solve quests before they "settled" into their character.


Chris said:
If you provide Sneak skills, you need to honor that choice with a Sneak path. Same with Speech, combat skills, science, etc. It only cheapens the experience if there's no reactivity or solution based on it.

Chris said:
Vince said:
I believe that story and non-linearity are diametrically opposed features.

I don't believe they are diametrically-opposed features, it just depends on what direction the story is coming from. If the game allows for a player-driven story based on game mechanics... is more what games should strive for, and I'd argue it's part of the appeal of open-world games vs. linear-level-missions in games...


The Virgin Vince vs The Chad Chris
 
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Safav Hamon

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I don't want to do too much injustice to AoD as its flaws turned me off before I could see all there is to see, but this was exactly the impression I got. "Put points into X to proceed along the pre-ordained path, sorry sucker, not enough points there lul". No thought or creativity required - or rewarded - on the player's side.

Exactly. Age of Decadence gives the illusion of non-linearity, but the paths are so rigid and narrow that it feels anything but.

There's only one choice that actually matters in the game, and that's what kind of character you decided to play at the very beginning.
 

Tigranes

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As much as I love AOD, a very clear & widely acknowledged problem was indeed that you were encouraged to save points for a rainy day, and it was possible to make hard choices and specialise but have that not lead to where you thought you were going.

The strengths of the system - the fact that those choices really matter very strongly, that different characters play more differently than ever, that hybrids are possible & rewarding in a different way, etc. - are real, but they don't erase the weakness.

Sometimes, people seem to confuse the real weaknesses with some exaggerated and emotional theory - e.g. you have to play the way Vince wants you to because he hates X Y Z, or that there's only like two possible builds otherwise you can't play a Thief. A lot of that is consistently debunked by the facts of how the game works, and again, this doesn't erase the actual weakness of the design.

VD certainly has spoken in the past about some of those weaknesses, and how they're trying to build on the strengths while finding different solutions to those weaknesses in the Colony Ship.
 

Absinthe

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In Age of Decadence, you have to join someone in Teron, you have to follow one of the many possible questlines until you reach Ganezzar, and only then does the world open up for some exploration and you can go to those ancient ruins and do the endgame content. You can't just rush to the temple with pre-knowledge of its location and confront Agathoth at level 1, like you can theoretically do in Fallout with the Master. There's a whole bunch of mandatory stuff you have to do first.
This isn't actually true. You can in fact avoid joining any faction in Teron. It's extremely stupid and unrewarding (since you'll miss out on a lot of SP), but you can do it. The easiest way is to go to the outpost and help the Aurelians fix the smelter. If you enter Maadoran without a faction you can actually join a faction there and if you enter it without the map quest the mad loremaster will point you in the direction you need.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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I don't want to do too much injustice to AoD as its flaws turned me off before I could see all there is to see, but this was exactly the impression I got. "Put points into X to proceed along the pre-ordained path, sorry sucker, not enough points there lul". No thought or creativity required - or rewarded - on the player's side.

Exactly. Age of Decadence gives the illusion of non-linearity, but the paths are so rigid and narrow that it feels anything but.

There's only one choice that actually matters in the game, and that's what kind of character you decided to play at the very beginning.

Did you even make it past the opening vignettes? It’s either that or you designed such a piss poor character that you missed out on a host of different options. Or you’re just full of shit, as usual.

But, beyond that, even if you were right that AoD is merely six different but related stories on rails (you are extremely wrong), that would still be quite the accomplishment. Show me anything else in the genre that does this for the whole game. Age of Decadence is the Rashomon of CRPGs.
 

Parabalus

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In Age of Decadence, you have to join someone in Teron, you have to follow one of the many possible questlines until you reach Ganezzar, and only then does the world open up for some exploration and you can go to those ancient ruins and do the endgame content. You can't just rush to the temple with pre-knowledge of its location and confront Agathoth at level 1, like you can theoretically do in Fallout with the Master. There's a whole bunch of mandatory stuff you have to do first.
This isn't actually true. You can in fact avoid joining any faction in Teron. It's extremely stupid and unrewarding (since you'll miss out on a lot of SP), but you can do it. The easiest way is to go to the outpost and help the Aurelians fix the smelter. If you enter Maadoran without a faction you can actually join a faction there and if you enter it without the map quest the mad loremaster will point you in the direction you need.

You can continue and go to Ganezzar without a faction, the most direct way being by using the nuke. When you get there, you can go after the map and go to the temple immediately.

If you have high INT+LORE you could even get to the temple without visiting Ganezzar (again, without joining a faction), through Zamedi.

AoD is very similar to Fallout in that the end goal of nearly every playthrough is dealing with the Temple, it just isn't spelled out explicitly at the beginning.
 
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JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Putting points in something lets me pass relevant checks, while not putting enough points means not passing

"Reward" or "punish"? DISCUSS!

neither, it's just a chore.

I don't want to do too much injustice to AoD as its flaws turned me off before I could see all there is to see, but this was exactly the impression I got. "Put points into X to proceed along the pre-ordained path, sorry sucker, not enough points there lul". No thought or creativity required - or rewarded - on the player's side.

The one thing that demanded thought and analysis was, ironically, the combat system, not anything else. Which is fine and dandy if you're playing a freeform tactics game, not an RPG.

Ultimately it seems AoD fell prey to a lack of clear vision. The old RPG disease.

I guess this might come from the way Vince understands RPGs - what they're all about, what the ideal RPG should be, etc. There've been plenty of discussions about how RPGs should be designed in regards to character skill vs player skill on the Codex in the past (like pre-2010), and I seem to remember Vince being on the side of "character skill trumps player skill". Now I don't remember where exactly Vince was on the spectrum, but some radicals on the Codex argued that the character you've built should be a lot more important than the player's own input during the later game. They argued that if your character is smart, the smart options should be presented to you openly rather than requiring the player to figure out the solution (since it's the character who's supposed to be smart, not the player). If your character is dumb, no smart solutions should be presented to him even if the character's other stats could theoretically allow for it (like a side entrance existing which can be lockpicked, but the 1 INT character with 30 lockpick can't use the side entrance because he's too dumb to think of it). Vault Dweller please tell us where your position is on the axis of player skill vs character skill, from the way AoD presents its choices I'd wager you're very far towards the character skill end of the axis.

Essentially, in the pure character skill game, a sneaky assassin would come up with the idea of using the balcony as a backside entrance on his own. No need for the character's player to figure this out, the game just presents the option to the player because the character thought of it - that's essentially what AoD does. If you have the appropriate skills, you can do it. You don't need to investigate a situation yourself and wonder "okay, which are the possible approaches here?" Instead all possible approaches are listed, and you pick the one most appropriate for your character build. The focus is wholly on the character, not as much on the player.

But there's also a different school of thought, one that demands more involvement from the player. Yes, your character might be a genius with 20 INT but if you don't come up with a clever solution as a player, your character won't come up with it either. It's the oldschool D&D way of things. Gary Gygax intended for the player to be as involved in the game as the character. Yes, a low int char wouldn't be able to translate an ancient inscription on a wall. When a high int char is about to do something stupid like touch a red-glowing sphere with his bare hands, the DM might say "You don't think this is such a good idea and get second thoughts about it. Still wanna do it?" Things like that.

But Gygax loved to design dungeons which required heavy experimentation and application of character skills by the player. The Tomb of Horrors is a great example. A lot of players would just use their character skills, then do stupid things and get themselves killed because they purely trusted in their character skills and didn't apply their player skills. The big stone face with the annihilating sphere in its mouth is a great example. Thieves use their detect traps skill, clerics use their detect traps spell. Nobody detects a trap. Players put a hand in the mouth, the sphere of annihilation destroys their hand, now they're one-handed. "But how can it be?!" asks the angry player. "My character didn't find a trap!"

"It's not a fucking trap you dingus," says the DM. "Traps are things that are hidden and activated by accident. A trapped door, a trapped chest, a hidden floor plate that makes the ceiling fall on your head when you step on it. This is an open hole with a sphere of annihilation in it. There is no trap. If you put your hand in it you're a retard and brought your misfortune upon yourself. It's your own fucking fault. Think more about what you're doing next time instead of blindly trusting what the skill checks tell you!"

In the classic Gygaxian style of game design, players are confronted with a situation, and it's up to them to come up with a solution on their own. Often, Gygax would design things specifically so generic skill checks didn't work, demanding from players to think outside the box, and not merely trust into the skills and spells of their character, leaving all the thinking aside in favor of just saying "yeah my cleric has a detect traps spell and he's a level 20 cleric so of course he always detects traps if there are any, no thoughts required on my part because my character solves it on his own". Gygax specifically designed his harder moduels to counter this kind of gameplay approach because he found it boring.

Meanwhile in AoD, the brunt of the effort is put on the character build. It's the character that figures things out based on his stats and skills. The player only has to pick the option that he wants to try, which might end up succeeding or failing - but it's not the player's job to come up with the solution in the first place. The solutions are already presented to you. You only have to let your character attempt one of them.
 

ScrotumBroth

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Meanwhile in AoD, the brunt of the effort is put on the character build. It's the character that figures things out based on his stats and skills.
Do you prefer to do lockpicking like in Beth games or hacking like in ME2? So YOU have to figure it out, not your character. That's idiotic.

The player only has to pick the option that he wants to try, which might end up succeeding or failing - but it's not the player's job to come up with the solution in the first place. The solutions are already presented to you. You only have to let your character attempt one of them.

Without ingame examples this reads like rubbish. There are so many conspiracies and scheming, with so many wrong turns and backfires, it's up to players to think, and decide what to do and suffer the consequences. It's players job to figure out how to get to desired goal, game is not forcing you to do anything, nor is it phoning it in what's the correct path.

You can change your alliances, or change your mind at almost any time and orchestrate triple or quadruple backstabbing, spinning webs around big players.

I don't see how is it any different from FO1/2 or PST, where game has prepared content to unfold based on player decisions, AoD only upped the stats and skills checks, but u like those older games, AoD offers genuinely different and worthy experience for each class playthrough. Unless you grind in Fallouts until becoming good at everything. PST is even worse, seeing as in t/wis run stands out as the best (only) build worth playing, in comparison to other builds.

Reading between the lines, it feels like some people also hold a personal grudge against VD, is it a tall poppy syndrome or something else, I don't know.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Essentially, in the pure character skill game, a sneaky assassin would come up with the idea of using the balcony as a backside entrance on his own. No need for the character's player to figure this out, the game just presents the option to the player because the character thought of it - that's essentially what AoD does. If you have the appropriate skills, you can do it. You don't need to investigate a situation yourself and wonder "okay, which are the possible approaches here?" Instead all possible approaches are listed*, and you pick the one most appropriate for your character build. The focus is wholly on the character, not as much on the player.

But AoD isn’t just a series of dialogue menus. There are plenty of situations where you get extra options if you put in the legwork to do some exploration and put in some additional thought. Just to give my favorite example: the airship hangar is an optional location. You can get the airship running if you have a spare power cylinder and you found the jellyfish artifact in Teron (in an optional building), assuming your build can pass all of the checks.

During the siege of Gannezar, I don’t remember anyone suggesting that you should go the hangar and launch the airship to break the siege. But if you come up with that idea on your own and your character can pass the skill checks, and you have the necessary artifacts, you can do something really cool that results in a very different ending.

Isn’t the abyss also optional, too? Aren’t there tons of checks that are made easier by finding a particular item or piece of information on your own initiative?

You’re talking about this game like it’s a piece of interactive fiction and, while it’s entirely possible to play AoD like that, there is a lot more to the experience if you go looking for it.

I don’t know, while your description above certainly applies to the vignettes at the very beginning, it really misses the mark once you get beyond the vignettes and the game opens up. Yes, character skill is of supreme importance in Age of Decadence, but so is player skill—otherwise it wouldn’t get so much grief for being too hard.

*As much as I hate being a pedant, all options are NOT listed. Lots of them you can’t even see without the right skills/stats. Seems like this would be good ammunition for someone who’s trying to argue that AoD puts itself at the extreme end of the character skill/player skill spectrum, but maybe that’s not the point you were trying to make.
 

AbounI

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But AoD isn’t just a series of dialogue menus
Not to mention its atmosphere too, while everyone wants to fuck everyone with you in the middle of that. And we all know that will fuck better is the one who will fuck the last. And you know what ? AoD allows that ! Even His Most Radiant Holiness Miltiades the First, Glory of a Thousand Suns can be fucked in the end. A priceless turn of event it is !
 

orcinator

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Do you prefer to do lockpicking like in Beth games or hacking like in ME2? So YOU have to figure it out, not your character. That's idiotic.

Minigames aren't bad because they require player skill, they're bad because they're minigames.

There are plenty of situations where you get extra options if you put in the legwork to do some exploration and put in some additional thought.
Too bad most of the time these are exceptions rather than the rule, and even when it does happen it isn't very interesting since it feels more like a late reward for finding something early on in the game rather than something you actually have to figure out. AoD having terrible exploration and world interaction mechanics doesn't help.
 

JarlFrank

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Meanwhile in AoD, the brunt of the effort is put on the character build. It's the character that figures things out based on his stats and skills.
Do you prefer to do lockpicking like in Beth games or hacking like in ME2? So YOU have to figure it out, not your character. That's idiotic.

Misinterpreting things seems to be your talent. Maybe you should've read the rest of my post too, where I bring some examples, or one of my previous posts where I detailed how I would've designed the quest to kill that noblewoman, Lorenza I think. Does any of that sound like minigames? No, it's more about the player observing the environment in order to figure out that a skill can be applied there, rather than a dialogue box telling you that applying this skill here is one of the options. I never mentioned minigames anywhere.


The player only has to pick the option that he wants to try, which might end up succeeding or failing - but it's not the player's job to come up with the solution in the first place. The solutions are already presented to you. You only have to let your character attempt one of them.

Without ingame examples this reads like rubbish. There are so many conspiracies and scheming, with so many wrong turns and backfires, it's up to players to think, and decide what to do and suffer the consequences. It's players job to figure out how to get to desired goal, game is not forcing you to do anything, nor is it phoning it in what's the correct path.

You can change your alliances, or change your mind at almost any time and orchestrate triple or quadruple backstabbing, spinning webs around big players.

I don't see how is it any different from FO1/2 or PST, where game has prepared content to unfold based on player decisions, AoD only upped the stats and skills checks, but u like those older games, AoD offers genuinely different and worthy experience for each class playthrough. Unless you grind in Fallouts until becoming good at everything. PST is even worse, seeing as in t/wis run stands out as the best (only) build worth playing, in comparison to other builds.

Many, I would even say the majority, of AoD's quests follow a CYOA style structure. You start the quest by, say, talking to a guard outside a fortress. After picking a dialogue option (maybe with a disguise skillcheck, maybe a streetwise, maybe a persuade) he tells you to follow him and you are teleported inside. Inside, you're supposed to find someone, but you're not going to explore the place freely. Instead you get dialogue box options like "explore the west wing" or "explore the east wing".
"You see a door that is slightly ajar, and a closed door. You hear a soft female voice singing from the open one. The closed one seems to be locked."
A) Try to look into the slightly open door without being seen by its occupant [stealth]
B) Enter the open door and talk to its occupant
C) Try to open the locked door [lockpicking]

In a game like Fallout or Arcanum, you would walk through the place yourself by clicking on the floor and your character walks there. If you come by the same hallway, you could click examine on the two doors to get the messages "This one is slightly ajar and you hear someone singing inside", and "This door is locked". Then you could enter the room with the unlocked door by opening it and going inside and talk to its occupant by clicking on her, or try to spy on her without being seen by activating the stealth skill and going into sneak mode. You could attempt to unlock the locked door by using the lockpick skill on it. That's what Fallout's skilldex was for.

Same situation, different structual approach.

Reading between the lines, it feels like some people also hold a personal grudge against VD, is it a tall poppy syndrome or something else, I don't know.

I did say several times that I enjoyed the game despite its shortcomings, so I dunno why you'd include that part in a reply to my post. If legitimate criticism on the game's unique approach to structure - which some people like and some people don't (I think it's ok but I prefer different design approaches) - is holding a grudge, then I guess I do?

Do you prefer to do lockpicking like in Beth games or hacking like in ME2? So YOU have to figure it out, not your character. That's idiotic.

Minigames aren't bad because they require player skill, they're bad because they're minigames.

There are plenty of situations where you get extra options if you put in the legwork to do some exploration and put in some additional thought.
Too bad most of the time these are exceptions rather than the rule, and even when it does happen it isn't very interesting since it feels more like a late reward for finding something early on in the game rather than something you actually have to figure out. AoD having terrible exploration and world interaction mechanics doesn't help.

Exactly this. There are plenty of moments in AoD where you get to explore on your own and get to make choices you wouldn't have known existed had you not explored the world enough. And these moments are my favorite moments in AoD. Exploring the library in chapter 2, or chapter 3 when the game opens up a bit and you get all kinds of old ruins to explore. You go there, explore, discover things, use your skills to progress through the location, and come out with a new piece of information or a useful artifact if all went well. Cool shit.

But that's not the majority of AoD's quests. The majority involves a lot of player teleporting and choices presented as options in a dialogue window. That's the most common and most prominent element of AoD, and if someone doesn't like that at all, they won't enjoy AoD because they'll have to go through a lot of these types of quests before they can get to the more open exploration bits in the third chapter.
 

HeatEXTEND

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No thought or creativity required - or rewarded - on the player's side.

You read some of these posts, and you just have to ask yourself, are these people fucking serious? How can anyone be so stupid? Did they drop on their head as a child? Maybe they regularly drink from lead pipes or their house is slowly giving them CO2 poisoning. I just don't know any more. These posts have no rhyme or reason, they are simply dumb. The guys who make these posts are cowards. They know nothing about high powered cut-throat environments of the business world mirrored with a sublime combination of realism and artistic exaggeration into the game world. They are clueless, and still dare complain. Pride and no substance. They can't handle defeat, they are incapable of learning, how dare is there an internal game world logic present here? Why does my 4 int char not have the funny dumb lines like in fallout? Why is every single moronic decision not completely simulated and presented as a viable choice? How else am I meant to compare it to my own life and feel immersed? I just want to know if they were this stupid before their clueless parents had them vaccinated. I don't think so. Mental midgets who prefer the tedium of small animated legs clumsily making their way through the city instead of the patrician comfort of teleportation induced narrative tension. Don't even get me started on the camera. You dumb ass. You fool. You clown. Why does this game not work like a VR simulated reality piece from my wet dreams that are completely devoid of any design temperance or good taste? Just shut the fuck up. Stupid idiots. They are larpers. Playing the game for them doesn't mean engaging with the game world and system, it simply means a one way ticket to escapist lalaland where they are liberated from the necessity to think or engage with problems. They write lines and lines of text pointlessly. The only thing they learned from VD is the autistic style of line by line quoting. Have they ever heard of Hegel? No. The dialectical perfection of AoD is beyond these base animals. Have you killed the Zamedi demon, you pretentious idiot who sullies the name of his great game? Trick question, moron, he isn't a demon, in fact, it could be argued that the player character is the real demon, you just don't get that in other games. Listen to me, I have seen the inside of Meru's hidden library, there isn't even an achievement for that, it's a hidden reward for killing Meru after his mind got infected with foreign entities just like your own got infected with extreme levels of retardation. You cannot even begin to talk to me about this game. I know everything, and you know nothing. Why is there a lockpick check? You fucking moron. If you asked me this in real life I would have my boyfriend beat you to a pulp. I actually don't have a boyfriend but if I did I would have him do that. There should be more reactivity if you play a woman? Maybe true, but did you know that in the thieves guild quest in Teron, Cado berates you for being late if you stop by Linos to tell him about the heist and says he will never work with a woman again? Subtle, but realistic, men often complain to women about things they would tolerate from other men. That's what social reactivity is about, not dressing up in harem clothing to appease loser nerds who just want to have a quick wank before dying to the bossfight because they are too stupid to build their characters properly. Yes, there are proper ways to build your character? Don't like it? Go live in a conformist utopia, you absolute mongrel. That's how life works, you live or you lose, you figure out what is the correct path through. People who complain about this are probably the same sort of a troglodyte that studies STEM or CS as a westerner in the 21st century in hopes of getting a well paying job even though all of your fields are oversaturated and getting outsourced overseas. Go dagger and crit, grab some dodge, max one or two non combat skills. There. Your problems are solved. Moron. Don't ever complain about AoD again. I will kill you.

Thank god for this wall, my days of typing replies to infidels are over :hero:
 

FeelTheRads

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Yes, yes, whoever doesn't like AoD is because it's so hardcore and they can't get the genius writing of VD. :lol: I'd rather read shampoo bottles than the boring tryhard drivel that is AoD.

This bit especially:
Playing the game for them doesn't mean engaging with the game world and system

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Engaging with the game world. The game world being going from one dialogue option to the next and teleporting from one town to another. Quality interactivity.

Yes, there's really no thought or creativity required. Game shows you the options available at that time in the script and you click on them to proceed to the next set of options. That's it.
So hardcore, cuz like u have to think about politiculs and liek figur out what VD wanted and if you don't you just reload and try again. ULTRAHARDCORE!!! Only for those baptized in fire!
 

hivemind

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Pretty Princess
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Feb 6, 2019
Messages
2,386
pearls before swine(literally)
 

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