No XP from kills in an RPG (Pillars of Eternity)

[Tavernking]

This was one of the more controversial features of PoE.

What do you think about it?

 

[octavius]

It's OK if you're a lvl 100 Lilura and don't get XP for killing your thousandth lowly scrub.

 

[Modron]

This was one of the more controversial features of PoE.

What do you think about it?

Didn't like xp scaling in Icewind Dale 2, didn't like its evolution in Icewind Dale 2 part 2 (PoE).

 

[Butter]

PoE had too many trash mobs, but it did a good thing in removing the ability to grind XP.

 

[Valky]

Killing is problematic and shouldn't be encouraged. XP should be gained through politically correct means like romancing tranny NPCs.

 

[Arulan]

It helps to dissuade players from feeling like they have to kill everything or they're missing out. Generally I'm in favor of making alternatives to combat attractive. Pillars of Eternity is still a very combat-focused RPG, unlike say The Age of Decadence, but I think this decision worked well enough.

 

[Modron]

PoE had too many trash mobs, but it did a good thing in removing the ability to grind XP.

Shit didn't respawn so I wouldn't call clearing the trash grinding but just time wasting since there was a) too much of it and b) no reward for doing so either in terms of loot or experience. Really the game, just like the Icewind Dales before it, had too much combat especially since the combat was forgettable.

Like ID, PoE suffered from that design school of have to fill every few steps on the maps with lots of disposable enemies, the whole kill trash mobs then walk 5 steps to trigger the next batch of mobs wears out its welcome fast to me. White March had fewer but bigger encounters and it was all the better for it, have to give players some breathing room.

It helps to dissuade players from feeling like they have to kill everything or they're missing out. Generally I'm in favor of making alternatives to combat attractive. Pillars of Eternity is still a very combat-focused RPG, unlike say The Age of Decadence, but I think this decision worked well enough.

What was the alternative in PoE, autistically slowly sneaking across entire maps at pace slower than it would probably take to clear crap encounters?

 

[Butter]

PoE had too many trash mobs, but it did a good thing in removing the ability to grind XP.

Shit didn't respawn so I wouldn't call clearing the trash grinding but just time wasting since there was a) too much of it and b) no reward for doing so either in terms of loot or experience. Really the game, just like the Icewind Dales before it, had too much combat especially since the combat was forgettable.

Like ID, PoE suffered from that design school of have to fill every few steps on the maps with lots of disposable enemies, the whole kill trash mobs then walk 5 steps to trigger the next batch of mobs wears out its welcome fast to me. White March had fewer but bigger encounters and it was all the better for it, have to give players some breathing room.

Icewind Dale is more defensible in this respect, because it was honest. There was no pretense about it being a narrative-driven game like with PoE.

 

[Modron]

Icewind Dale is more defensible in this respect, because it was honest. There was no pretense about it being a narrative-driven game like with PoE.

Icewind Dale one was also more sensible about number of encounters than IWD 2. In 2 they could probably reduce the number of trash encounters by 30% and the game would be better for it plus sawyer wouldn't have had to come up with that xp scaling system to make sure you were at the level he wanted you to be at at x point in the game.

Kek that is still probably the most autistic game design decision I have ever seen. "Hey guys we added so many trivial encounters and trash mobs to the game that people are too high of level. Hmmm, I know lets just reduce the trash (cue guy being thrown out office window). I know, we will just make it so they stop getting experience once they have a level or 2 over the monsters. Genius!"

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Underrail did it and nobody complained.

 

[Modron]

Combat was fun and challenging in Underrail, also kills got you loot from armor, weapons, crafting components, to you name it. PoE gave you like 3 pennies and generic gear you could sell for fuck all in 99.9% of encounters.

 

[Grauken]

Underrail did it and nobody complained.

There was quite a lot of complaining, but at least Underrail tried to offer an alternative that was at least interesting (although not succesful IMHO)

Still, games with no XP systems are usually one-off experiments that thankfully don't have any major impact on other RPGs going forward


Let the XP battle rewards keep rolling

 

[Trashos]

I like the idea, in principle. I think Underrail did it better with the Oddities (a great system imo), but I still applaud PoE for this feature.

However, as already mentioned, with no kill XP trash mobs became even more unbearable than they would otherwise be. And PoE had plenty of them.

 

[alyvain]

I think a certain post-apocalyptic Roman visual novel handled this rather well

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I think a certain post-apocalyptic Roman visual novel handled this rather well

New Vegas gave XP for kills though

 

[alyvain]

I think a certain post-apocalyptic Roman visual novel handled this rather well

New Vegas gave XP for kills though

New Vegas is eroge actually

 

[Yosharian]

XP for kills, kills role-playing

XP for anything that isn't succeeding at an overarching objective, kills role-playing, in fact

So the logical conclusion is that XP for kills is only an issue if you're trying to encourage the player to role-play.

If your core gameplay loop is 'kill shit and loot its corpse' then XP for kills is fine. But if you actually want players to do more than that, it's a detriment.

 

[Tavernking]

XP for kills, kills role-playing

XP for anything that isn't succeeding at an overarching objective, kills role-playing, in fact

So the logical conclusion is that XP for kills is only an issue if you're trying to encourage the player to role-play.

If your core gameplay loop is 'kill shit and loot its corpse' then XP for kills is fine. But if you actually want players to do more than that, it's a detriment.

Could not have put that better myself

 

[majorsoccer]

XP from kills is one of the main issues with JRPGs

 

[Yosharian]

The minute you realise you're not getting XP from kills, you start to consider alternatives to simply clearing each map of hostiles. Unfortunately, old habits die hard. I find myself clearing maps just because I feel the need to 'complete' the map this way. If I leave enemies alive, it feels like I've not experienced the content.

I feel like developers need to give players more incentives if they want them to consider play other than 'kill everything that moves'.

 

[Grauken]

if they want them to consider play other than 'kill everything that moves'.

I like keeping traditions alive that proved successful

 

[majorsoccer]

i prefer grinding through Quests than grinding through repetitive non-challeging encounters.

 

[a Goat]

The reason why Sawyer said it's a thing:
To give non-combat alternatives viability as power gaming method.

In practice however areas that allow for it aren't that common and when they happen they're usually about passing this skill check or another. Obsidian would probably do better had they played few commandos-likes before designing levels but they obviously didn't do so.

The actual reason why it's a thing, in this situation is so it's harder to outlevel the content you're facing.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Having a single form of "experience" that dictates your entire character's growth is the root of this problem.
On one end you have the concept of being able to lie better, be more intelligent, etc., by repeatedly killing weak goblins.
On the other you don't get better at fighting by actually, well, fighting.

 

[Alex]

The minute you realise you're not getting XP from kills, (snip...)

Is the minute you shouzão hit uninstall. But seriously, not having XP for kills in a game that is mostly about combat should be a big red alert. First because you are not rewarding the player for what is the most important aspect of the game. Second because it is probably a sign you want to control how your game is played, rather than giving the players tools for them to interact with your world. If you really want to control PC power levels through your game, why not just drop the pretense and level them up automatically when a new chapter (or whatever you have in your game) starts? But if you want XPs in your game, then please use them right, make earning XP something that is part of the challenge of the game, not just a formality.