Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker's combat is more of a clusterfuck than Deadfire's

drgames

Scholar
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
153
Kingmaker would be less shit if it was turn based

Less confusing, but unfortanetly it is the nature of RTwP games. Any RTwP battle is a clusterfuck.

but according to Owlcat's lead director turn based combat gets in the way of having more trash mobs

To be honest, they could easily resolve with an "auto-attack"/"AI combat" option for dealing with trashmobs, with options to speed up the velocity of combat/animations.
 
Self-Ejected

Safav Hamon

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
2,141
I think the fact that they asked if players wanted it, means they are open to considering adding it.

Press X to doubt

They could have made it turn based from the beginning, but Owlcats has made it abundantly clear that they think turn based combat is slow and boring.
 

Sharpedge

Prophet
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,061
I think the fact that they asked if players wanted it, means they are open to considering adding it.

Press X to doubt

They could have made it turn based from the beginning, but Owlcats has made it abundantly clear that they think turn based combat is slow and boring.
Sure, it may be unlikely but the fact that they had a survey about it at least means that discussion about that particular point is on the table, unless they just have a weird fetish for wasting people's time by making them fill stuff in. Of coarse, depending on the people who fill the survey in, they might come to the conclusion that people don't like turn based anyhow, but that is besides the point.
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
522
Location
Germoney
There must be a skip animation button. TB battles won't take forever if that is always implemented. Some rogue-likes have much bigger battles than either PoE or P:K but take a fraction of that time because there are either no animations or you can skip them. I also know the TCG-like Etherlords 2 also has a skip animation button and you don't have to wait forever to look at your units attacking. Why developers don't do this is beyond me.


Additionally, the Realms Of Arkania games had an "Auto resolve / let the Computer deal with t̶̶r̶̶a̶̶s̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶o̶̶b̶̶s̶ Combat" button as far back as the 1990s... Every battle resolved in a mere seconds. Wave of the future dudes, 100% electronic.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,284
There must be a skip animation button. TB battles won't take forever if that is always implemented. Some rogue-likes have much bigger battles than either PoE or P:K but take a fraction of that time because there are either no animations or you can skip them. I also know the TCG-like Etherlords 2 also has a skip animation button and you don't have to wait forever to look at your units attacking. Why developers don't do this is beyond me.


Additionally, the Realms Of Arkania games had an "Auto resolve / let the Computer deal with t̶̶r̶̶a̶̶s̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶o̶̶b̶̶s̶ Combat" button as far back as the 1990s... Every battle resolved in a mere seconds. Wave of the future dudes, 100% electronic.
RoA had real problems when it comes to 1 vs 1 melee fights: Parry, parry, parry, parry, parry, critical miss!
 

jf8350143

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
1,277
Kingmaker would be less shit if it was turn based, but according to Owlcat's lead director turn based combat gets in the way of having more trash mobs

Turn-based battles are attention hogs. It takes a lot of time to finish one and there are many battles to be fought. Since they take up so much time and attention, these battles have to be different and unique, and that makes the game too combat-oriented for our taste.
They had a Survey about a month ago asking players if they prefer real time or turn based. They also had a survey asking about how they could improve the last chapter and how they could improve the first. I think the fact that they asked if players wanted it, means they are open to considering adding it.
The thing is, simply adding a turn-based mod for Kingmaker won't work.

Deadfire purposefully reduce the number of trash mobs from the very beginning, so when it get a turn-based mode they don't have to adjust the encounter design.

Meanwhile Kingmaker is filled with trash mobs left and right, unless they are willing to remove 80% of them, otherwise a turn based mod will simply make the game a chore.
 
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
522
Location
Germoney
Additionally, the Realms Of Arkania games had an "Auto resolve / let the Computer deal with t̶̶r̶̶a̶̶s̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶o̶̶b̶̶s̶ Combat" button as far back as the 1990s... Every battle resolved in a mere seconds. Wave of the future dudes, 100% electronic.
RoA had real problems when it comes to 1 vs 1 melee fights: Parry, parry, parry, parry, parry, critical miss!


Maybe so, but that was true to the P&P source material I'm afraid (attack/parry values involved when resolving Combat) and thus is Pretty exlusive to RoA. :D Doesn't Change that from Star Trail onwards Players could decide whether a) the Computer should resolve a TB Combat in a couple seconds which triggered a seperate "quick battle" screen b) even customize this some (e.g. whether the computer should use spells/magic or save on the spell points for later use). Surprised that nobody had picked up from that, and given today's Levels AI, taking it a step further (say, telling the Computer what spells to prioritize, what weapons to use, what have you).

Basically: Your Party of six, Level 6, opens a door and faces a room of cellar rats. Will your stalward band choose to (F)ight or (L)et the computer do the trick?


As for the RtwP debate, I like RtwP when it works, personally. But if I would break it down to where it fails when it does is I'd describe it as follows. An inherently real-time Environment goes with an inherently more "natural" flow that you may face in an actual battle. As soon as too many mechanics are piled on top of each other that are anything but "natural" but rather heavy abstractions of how an actual battle may be resolved, there's plenty room for conflict. Bioware back then took their main Inspiration from RTS of the day, in itself comparably simple Affairs. According then staffers, Warcraft 2 was big time popular around the offices. They then simplified the AD&D 2nd Edition rules some further (which they also did some on NWN 3rd Edition). Tabletop rules and similar originate from tabletop war games, and those are the definition of abstract combat.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,284
Additionally, the Realms Of Arkania games had an "Auto resolve / let the Computer deal with t̶̶r̶̶a̶̶s̶̶h̶̶ ̶̶m̶̶o̶̶b̶̶s̶ Combat" button as far back as the 1990s... Every battle resolved in a mere seconds. Wave of the future dudes, 100% electronic.
RoA had real problems when it comes to 1 vs 1 melee fights: Parry, parry, parry, parry, parry, critical miss!


Maybe so, but that was true to the P&P source material I'm afraid (attack/parry values involved when resolving Combat) and thus is Pretty exlusive to RoA. :D Doesn't Change that from Star Trail onwards Players could decide whether a) the Computer should resolve a TB Combat in a couple seconds which triggered a seperate "quick battle" screen b) even customize this some (e.g. whether the computer should use spells/magic or save on the spell points for later use). Surprised that nobody had picked up from that, and given today's Levels AI, taking it a step further (say, telling the Computer what spells to prioritize, what weapons to use, what have you).

Basically: Your Party of six, Level 6, opens a door and faces a room of cellar rats. Will your stalward band choose to (F)ight or (L)et the computer do the trick?


As for the RtwP debate, I like RtwP when it works, personally. But if I would break it down to where it fails when it does is I'd describe it as follows. An inherently real-time Environment goes with an inherently more "natural" flow that you may face in an actual battle. As soon as too many mechanics are piled on top of each other that are anything but "natural" but rather heavy abstractions of how an actual battle may be resolved, there's plenty room for conflict. Bioware back then took their main Inspiration from RTS of the day, in itself comparably simple Affairs. According then staffers, Warcraft 2 was big time popular around the offices. They then simplified the AD&D 2nd Edition rules some further (which they also did some on NWN 3rd Edition). Tabletop rules and similar originate from tabletop war games, and those are the definition of abstract combat.
I have played the games. I know what they are like. Without that auto-fight feature, that one-vs-one fight against the dead guy in Shadows Over Riva would be monitor-out-the-window time.
 

FreeKaner

Prophet of the Dumpsterfire
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
6,908
Location
Devlet-i ʿAlīye-i ʿErdogānīye
I have to say I like how the lightning (not lighting) looks in PF:K. In PoE electricity and lightning is really unimpressive, which is a shame.

Deadfire is shit but people here acting as if it doesn't look better than PF:K are kidding themselves. Visuals is the one thing that the game did right, very right. Just because the game has overdone writing, lack of proper vision, garbage system design, streamlined balance etc. and bunch of small problems adding up that it feels like the game is actively trying to prevent you from enjoying it doesn't mean it also has to look bad. It doesn't.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,882
Yea, they made lightning look and sound very cool in PF:K, probably best version from all IE and IE like games. Just that since the game is not turn based, it is hard to use it effectively. So usually fireballs are choice of spell instead for that spell level.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,734
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
I'm still not entirely sure why they made Kingmaker RTWP and not TB. I'm guessing BG/IE nostalgia was the main reason, but still.

They could have copied the tabletop combat rules almost 1:1 in TB. It also means you can use most of the encounters and stat blocks directly from the AP, rather than having to rebalance things.
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
17,040
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Noticed that the two first pictures in the thread from Pathfinder is mine, Vomol is/was my character. Interesting :)

When I uploaded them I named them "Standard RPG clusterfuck" and "Aaaaaaaaaah the wolf apocalypse is upon us"
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Safav Hamon

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot The Real Fanboy
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
2,141
I'm still not entirely sure why they made Kingmaker RTWP and not TB. I'm guessing BG/IE nostalgia was the main reason, but still.

Owlcats creative director said:
Turn-based battles are attention hogs. It takes a lot of time to finish one and there are many battles to be fought. Since they take up so much time and attention, these battles have to be different and unique, and that makes the game too combat-oriented for our taste.
 

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,037
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
You can't say clusterfuck - it's like saying brainstorming - it might upset the retarded people who can't play pathfinder. I'm not being petty here; it's just that the OP is as open and nonsensical as the attacks of opportunity in POE.
 

Crichton

Prophet
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,210
I think RTwP Deadfire (haven't tried the TB version yet) and Kingmaker are pretty much equally clusterfuck-y but that hasn't kept me from enjoying both. I will mention however that my party recently fought a dragon in Kingmaker unprepared, I was pretty sure I was going to get wiped but ended up triumphing through some unknown mechanism. Spells, attacks and damage numbers were flying around so fast, particularly over the dragon, that I still have no real idea what the fuck was going on during that fight in terms of say, how much damage was done by blade barrier as opposed to bow damage from an archer as opposed to all the little bibs and bobs from the animal companions.
 

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,037
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I think RTwP Deadfire (haven't tried the TB version yet) and Kingmaker are pretty much equally clusterfuck-y but that hasn't kept me from enjoying both. I will mention however that my party recently fought a dragon in Kingmaker unprepared, I was pretty sure I was going to get wiped but ended up triumphing through some unknown mechanism. Spells, attacks and damage numbers were flying around so fast, particularly over the dragon, that I still have no real idea what the fuck was going on during that fight in terms of say, how much damage was done by blade barrier as opposed to bow damage from an archer as opposed to all the little bibs and bobs from the animal companions.

I kind-of-agree. It has amazed me for years that we still have to put up with floating text and numbers above characters' heads in a RPG. I remember NWN2 in particular was a major annoyance. It wasn't broken in the IE games...
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom