Something RPGs lack that MMORPGs have.

[anvi]

There is a whole other level of how important what you are doing is when you play an MMO. I don't mean some fly by night MMO you play for a few weeks, but I mean in one of your long term loves. Everything matters because you are building up over a journey that can take years.

A single player RPG has its advantages too, but looting stuff and a lot of the tension and sense of achievement is so much weaker than what you get in an MMO. For example imagine an item that is so good that people will log in every night and sit in the same room of a dungeon and kill stuff for hours, just for a chance to get this item. It might take them a week to get just that one item, and there are 20 more they want right away. And so much more.

Even a good RPG, I know I will be uninstalling it in a week or two anyway so I really don't care about a whole lot.

 

[King Crispy]

If you equate the mindless ritual of camping out and killing the same creatures again and again just so you can obtain an item that's .0001% better than the other 5,000 idiots who are playing the same game you are with "importance" and "mattering", then no wonder you like MMOs so much.

You're their perfect target audience.

 

[Butter]

Wow, you're right. Maybe a lot of single player RPGs would be better if they included a lottery.

 

[anvi]

If you equate the mindless ritual of camping out and killing the same creatures again and again just so you can obtain an item that's .0001% better than the other 5,000 idiots who are playing the same game you are with "importance" and "mattering", then no wonder you like MMOs so much.

You're their perfect target audience.

But, smartass dipshit, that is all you are doing in most games. Skyrim is going to Fjnargnjrn to collect the amulet of Fjnargnjrn so that you can get a quest to do some other stupid shit so that you can eventually get 1 attribute point. And people love it. My point is that they get invested in a character that is all gone after a month. A good MMO keeps people playing for years.

 

[Neanderthal]

I don't play MMOs, haven't done since UO, but the repitition and grinding are not attractive to me. Far better in my opinion a number of well crafted, varied quests that lead to a suitable reward (for instance the Guarda Revanche in Krondor, or Raven's armour in the Witcher) than sitting in one room and repeating the same actions ad nauseam. That is not to my mind good design and enjoyment, rather Skinner Box mechanics, meant to stimulate habitual behaviour.

 

[Tweed]

Nah, I was in Realm of Insanity back when it was on The Combine. No more twenty four hour work days for me, thanks.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yeah man if there's one thing WoW is known for it's deep character development and story for your player character.

 

[Arulan]

Eh, you could make a case for emergent stories in sandbox MMOs like Eve Online and Ultima Online, but they're far from the norm. Most MMOs by necessity have to severely limit personal stories and reactivity.

 

[Beastro]

I get anvi's basic point, but I think we can all agree the MMO approach of mindless camping shouldn't be repeated as a mechanic to invest people in their character and its growth.

The nearest I've come to what he proposes in a single player game was playing Borderlands back in the day for rare shit. I tried that a few times and then went looking for a item gen program to give it to me once I felt I'd camped that target item enough.

It's something I very much wish I'd had on hand for some items I camped in EQ, and no the time wasted doing it didn't help me invest more but ate at me desire to keep playing the fucking game (They weren't very rare items, just bad luck on drops).

 

[Barbalos]

Likely a large part of the reason for this drive to camp for these items in MMOs is the fact it's a multiplayer game and there's that competitive aspect to it. In a single player game it doesn't seem to matter as much if you get a super-special item since you're not competing via drop rates or time invested with a million other people. And therefore you don't feel as excited or superior as a result of getting your rare item, even if some rare items in a single player game are just as useful or powerful.

 

[Grauken]

For example imagine an item that is so good that people will log in every night and sit in the same room of a dungeon and kill stuff for hours, just for a chance to get this item.

That is the very definition of retadred

 

[Gerrard]

And garbage game design. Something that WoW would've had, definitely. Just as good as running for literally 30 minutes non-stop to get to the next town.

 

[RaptorRex888]

MMO's and multiplayer games in general are nothing but skinner boxes where people undergo thousands of hours of endlessly monotonous gameplay with little to no variation for no reward other than meaningless e-points to e-wank with other e-people.

Nothing like posting on a forum.

 

[Grauken]

Eh, we all know that the Codex is addictive and not good for us, but then, what drugs are

 

[Funposter]

For example imagine an item that is so good that people will log in every night and sit in the same room of a dungeon and kill stuff for hours, just for a chance to get this item.

That's called mental illness.

 

[Kaethar]

If you enjoy that I guess...

 

[Max Damage]

There's camping for items and exp in the same designated spots in Stranger of Sword City, and it's one of the reasons why the game feels like MMORPG and sucks big time. It's the worst kind of time sink, where you could just program a bot to do the same thing and nothing of value would be lost. The lowest form of content padding, worse than level scaling. If you have THIS much free time, why not play something that has actual variety?

 

[anvi]

I don't play MMOs, haven't done since UO, but the repitition and grinding are not attractive to me. Far better in my opinion a number of well crafted, varied quests that lead to a suitable reward (for instance the Guarda Revanche in Krondor, or Raven's armour in the Witcher) than sitting in one room and repeating the same actions ad nauseam. That is not to my mind good design and enjoyment, rather Skinner Box mechanics, meant to stimulate habitual behaviour.

This thread wasn't really supposed to be about MMOs vs RPG and all their many pros and cons. I was getting at one point, I play almost any single player game, and I don't care too much anything because I am done in a week or so. There are MMOs I played for over a year, and some people have played them for many years. It makes everything you do, far more meaningful because it is something you can still benefit from a year later. Also the repetition is not unique to MMOs. Most RPGs have you fight lots of enemies over and over. That is no different to an MMO. The difference is that the single player RPG doesn't care if you finish in a week, the MMO wants you to at least play a few months. But generally the mechanics of an MMO are far better than RPG anyway, so I would much prefer to play do 1000 fights in EQ than I would in shitty Kingmaker. Also repetition isn't necessarily a part of MMOs, there are top MMOs that I got to max level and did almost everything in 3 weeks.

Yeah man if there's one thing WoW is known for it's deep character development and story for your player character.

It is known for exactly that. I have buddies that have played that game for several years. Their character has a more interesting story than your life. And the character development is pretty massive. And the 10+ million people paying to play it each month are also proving you wrong.

I get anvi's basic point, but I think we can all agree the MMO approach of mindless camping shouldn't be repeated as a mechanic to invest people in their character and its growth.

The nearest I've come to what he proposes in a single player game was playing Borderlands back in the day for rare shit. I tried that a few times and then went looking for a item gen program to give it to me once I felt I'd camped that target item enough.

It's something I very much wish I'd had on hand for some items I camped in EQ, and no the time wasted doing it didn't help me invest more but ate at me desire to keep playing the fucking game (They weren't very rare items, just bad luck on drops).

You can be a dipshit but you are the only one who got my point on this. Borderlands was what I had in mind, and Space Rangers, Factorio, X3/X4, games where you can play the same world for months. They are more like MMOs and they benefit from it. There is repetition but a good game can make it so that what you repeat is really fun. I agree with you about EQ, it was far too grindy, I spent something like 80 hours to get a pair of jboots that I really needed to progress, I petitioned GMs and insulted them, called Brad a dumb fuck on the forums etc. But that's not to say the whole thing is without merit. The principle is good, make things harder to get and you get a bigger sense of satisfaction once you get it. EQ just needed some moderation.

For example imagine an item that is so good that people will log in every night and sit in the same room of a dungeon and kill stuff for hours, just for a chance to get this item.

That's called mental illness.

For example imagine an item that is so good that people will log in every night and sit in the same room of a dungeon and kill stuff for hours, just for a chance to get this item.

That is the very definition of retadred

And Kingmaker is any different? Most games are no different to this. Yeah some old MMOs dragged the grind out too much, some MMOs have no grind at all. I completed the likes of Rift a lot faster than I completed some single player games. The point is that every game has you repeating things over and over, what matters is how fun this is. If you make it fun enough, people will be glad to do it for months. Many single player games have people still playing the same world after months.

 

[RaptorRex888]

The entire point of your OP is debunked with your last sentence there.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

If you equate the mindless ritual of camping out and killing the same creatures again and again just so you can obtain an item that's .0001% better than the other 5,000 idiots who are playing the same game you are with "importance" and "mattering", then no wonder you like MMOs so much.

You're their perfect target audience.

But... but... other players that see my gear know I'm cool! They'll envy me! They'll want to be me!

Let me link you some ACHIEVEMENTS I have! You'll see then! Oh boy!

 

[anvi]

The entire point of your OP is debunked with your last sentence there.

No because the single player games that keep you playing a while are about 2% of what is out there. Also they tend to not be good enough to keep me playing for months, especially because as soon as I get balls deep in something like X4, I start to know that spending 3 more months building up a space empire would not be as fun as playing 3 months playing something else, like a good MMO. Factorio I lasted a good 3 weeks but only aspies go beyond that. MMOs can keep people playing for many months without it even beginning to feel stale.

 

[DalekFlay]

That is the very definition of retadred

And yet the core design philosophy of today's most successful games.

 

[anvi]

How is it any different to New Vegas?

 

[Lemming42]

It really is a shame that there's no practical way to replicate some of the best parts of MMOs in singleplayer. Gearing up for a quest in Runescape back in the day was full-on intense, knowing that one fuckup meant you'd lose just about everything you were carrying permanently, possibly setting you back several real-life days' worth of gameplay. You had to take along emergency escape teleports, anti-poisons just in case you randomly got fucked, healing items and still leave enough space to pick up all the garbage shit you'd need for the quest. In singleplayer games, you just quickload and quicksave until you eventually know exactly what to do, and the worst consequence for failure is losing like a minute of gameplay.

The only immediately obvious way around this is permadeath, but permadeath games universally fucking suck.

 

[JarlFrank]

The main mechanic of MMOs is grind. You do the exact same thing over and over again just for a chance to get an epic item you can brag to your friends about.

And yeah, okay, let's assume the core gameplay of RPGs is exactly that. Doing the same thing (fighting) over and over again to get better items and level up. Oldschool RPGs like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Gold Box games, they are essentially focused on fighting, getting XP, and upgrading your gear. Even more involving modern RPGs like Gothic, Morrowind, Baldur's Gate - they're essentially the same, too.

Even if we assume that, MMOs are exceptionally shitty at providing an engaging experience in this core gameplay aspect. In MMOs, you spend a lot of time fighting the exact same fights and the gear drops are always randomized.
In ToEE, which isn't known for its excellent encounter design, there are nevertheless a couple of cool and memorable encounters. The fight with Lareth in the Moathouse is a great one, for example. It's challenging and memorable, and you fight it once because it's a boss fight.
In an MMO, the Moathouse would be an "instance" and you'd run it with your group at least once a week until you're out of its level range, which can take a lot of time. Most MMO dungeons are played through 5 to 10 times at least. You do the same content over and over again until it grows stale. And that's just the special dungeons you run with a group. Usually the gameplay consists of running through the same landscape you've run through a dozen times already, grinding the same respawning mobs you've been griding for the last two weeks.

And the items? Well, in a game like Morrowind you can beeline to the location of a unique item if you know where it is, and exploring a hard dungeon will always give you a certain hand-placed unique item as a reward at the end.
In an MMO, you'll grind the same boss a dozen times for a 10% drop chance of a unique item you need. If it doesn't drop this time you gotta run through the same dungeon with the exact same encounters again.

MMOs are designed to waste your time and require a disproportionally high investment of effort on the player's part. You have to grind a lot if you want to keep leveling up and improving your gear. The actual gameplay is not very engaging. In fact, it tends to be less engaging than single player dungeon crawlers from the fucking 80s.

The fun in RPGs is encountering new situations which you then overcome with the skills of your character or party. A dungeon with puzzles, Dungeon Master style. Hand-placed combat encounters, KotC style. Situations you can solve in different ways, Fallout and Arcanum style. Do stuff, get XP, level up character, find new stuff to tackle with your better character.

MMOs, for a large amount of their gameplay time, lack that "find new stuff" aspect that makes RPGs fun, because they require you to do the exact same stuff over and over again. For some people this causes attachment to their character and the game because they spend so much time with it. For me, it caused me to give up World of Warcraft after 3 weeks when I played it back in 2006. I had explored everything, done every quest in the current region of the game, wanted to progress to the next region - only to find out I was underleveld for that area and constantly died to standard enemy mobs in the wilderness. When I realized I had to go back to the area I had spent the last 2 weeks in and grind grind grind, I quit the game because fuck this shit.