Big brain challenge - non-tree dialogue system?

[Maxie]

I'm at odds with the concept of non-tree dialogue systems being possible to invent and/or implement, not some science fiction spiel. As far as I cal tell, doing a node tree of dialogue lines leading to another dialogue lines in perpetua is the default way to write dialogue ever, forever.

Is anyone able to conceive a system which does not rely on nodes leading to another nodes, which in turn lead to another nodes, which (...), gated behind stat checks etc? Is 'emergent' dialogue with disposition-based probability a way? Perhaps a minor neural networks module can be implemented, connecting your game with some Silicon Valley basement at all times?

The thread is supposed to be a brain tease and even the most outlandish takes on the matter are welcome.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

an obvious alternative is keyword-based dialogue systems

 

[RickOmbo]

What's wrong with tree dialogue systems? Do you just want your system to be original?

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

Truly a visionary.

 

[Maxie]

What's wrong with tree dialogue systems? Do you just want your system to be original?

is the concept of intellectual speculation as foreign to you as not eating glue for breakfast is?

 

[Saduj]

Perhaps a minor neural networks module can be implemented, connecting your game with some Silicon Valley basement at all times?

Or go low tech and partner with a company that provides online chat customer service type services.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Mmm, yes, AI generated gibberish or Indian call-center generated gibberish. What to choose?!

 

[CryptRat]

What's wrong with tree dialogue systems?

I understand the appeal of dialogue trees with limited options based on the characters' skills in a game which is entirely based on limited options based on the characters' skills, and I like the few big dialog battles in Torment or Arcanum but dialogue trees are still not my favourite system. I enjoy keyboard-keyword systems more, asking for the hints and directions I really need, taking notes, actively advancing in the quest(s) and hunting for secrets by triggering the good keywords. Sure it's not as stat-intensive but it's challenging, keyword dialogs frighten casual players which is always a plus.

 

[Egosphere]

dialogue trees' weakness is that you have to cycle through dialogue to get through all the lore. Trimming the fat is the only solution i can think of

 

[Covenant]

Could you Dwarf Fortress it? By which I mean, stuff NPCs full of an absurdly large list of things they have 'interest' in or care about, and values that determine whether they're likely to reward you, attack you, stop talking to you, etc, based on what you say. Say if a local NPC is really interested in Warlord Bob, because he slaughtered their village last year, and when you type in the keyword of his name (presumably telling them that you killed Warlock Bob), they might give praise to <<insertgodhere>> and potentially offer you a small randomnly generated reward appropriate for their economic status. You could then reply to that offer with a few generic options like Accept, Refuse, Haggle, Threaten, and the NPC would respond based on a roll against various values in things like bravery, stubbornness, etc.

I don't think the results would be any better than a traditional dialogue system - probably far worse - but it might qualify as an alternative. Then again, it's not so dissimilar from the Wiz 8 system alluded to above, just with more procedural generation, and I'm not sure that's even significantly different from regular node-based conversation except with more breadth and much less depth.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[TheChickenKing]

The main direction you could go outside of branching tree systems is towards some sort of procedural generation/RNG system. That'd run into the same problems that Fallout 3 and 4's RNG speech checks had, which could be easily bypassed with save scumming. A keyword system could arguably work a bit better, by forcing people to actually remember and use information in a way that lines up more with real-world speech. That'd be really difficult to use in the context of a game, though, as it could easily make NPCs feel like info dumps that respond to phrases like a brainwashed MK Ultra test subject. See also Morrowind, which might not've used a system where you could just type words in, but operated on similar principles.

The main advancement in dialogue that I've seen and like is the use of timers to force conversation to progress naturally. Obviously, if you're not going for a more natural/immersive/cinematic/storyfag feel and want a more "game-y" game (I don't intend for that to sound belittling, I'm just not sure how else to say it), then a keyword system or an RNG dialogue system with measures in place to prevent save scumming could work great. Otherwise, dialogue trees seem like the way to go, in which case timers that force the player to respond to things at a normal pace would be really important to maintain a natural pace to conversation. See also Alpha Protocol. Alpha Protocol also basically spent all of its budget on having genuinely branching dialogue in a game that was relatively short by today's standard of massive open-world RPG, which certainly helps, but that's getting off topic.

Finally, I'd note that Fable isn't actually a horrible example for how a very distinct type of communication system could work. Keep things light and cartoony and allow the player to interact with the world through a wide set of actions that elicit certain responses from NPCs on the basis of personality, a rock-paper-scissor system of arguing or persuasion (pick the correct interaction at the right time to respond to an NPC correctly) and maybe a little RNG. It'd need more effort than Fable's very basic systems, but it could be a good middle ground between something that makes sense in the context of the universe and something that allows broader interactions than dialogue trees.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

A keyword system doesn't offer any improvement. Instead of a monolithic trees with many branches, you have a forest of shrubbery. You will also waste the player's time with "I didn't understand that" or some other vague rejection of the player's query. If you supply a limited number of keywords to avoid that, then you basically are doing dialogue trees in the same manner as Mass Effect.

I certainly don't have any solutions outside of AI and chatbots, which would be inordinately expensive at this time. I have a memory of Microsoft doing some kind of tech demonstration several years ago for this very thing. The player could have a conversation with a child on the lawn of a home or something. I'm struggling to recall the details. The demonstration was uncanny, but obviously limited. I'll see what I can find.

 

[Grauken]

During the Shadowrun Kickstarter they considered doing a keyword-based dialogue system where individual facts where like items, so you couldn't metagame dialogue but had to hunt down certain pieces of knowledge. I thought that sounded like a cool idea (especially if you could integrate more dynamics into it, maybe even a random element), but then they went back to traditional dialogue trees

 

[Chippy]

Isn't it viable to do what has already been done and expand on what is already there, instead of constantly re-inventing the wheel more efficiently?.

 

[V_K]

It all depends on the gameplay function that dialog serves. If it's just an information delivery system, a keyword wiki works arguably best (with the added fun of keyword hunting or figuring out). If it's there to offer a diplomacy-based path through the game, you can have a number of systems and minigames (I wouldn't mind, for example, to have diplomacy in form of MTG-like card strategy, with cards representing different facts, reputations, rhetoric devices etc.). Arguably, the popularity of dialog trees arose from the fact that they can merge these functions relatively seamlessly and realistically, but the downside is that there's very little gameplay left in them.

 

[V_K]

keywords need to be logic-gated for an optimal dialogue experience, so you dont access info the NPC has no reason to tell you just yet

That only makes sense if you have a linear plot. Which you shouldn't.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Alpan]

... which problem is highlighted in the Her Story experimental game ...

This was not a problem in the game you mention, though elaborating would probably result in spoilers. You would be correct had the game's plot unambiguously spoiled itself as a result of such experimentation.

 

[Sigourn]

No need to substitute a tree dialogue system. I find it works just fine, and a keyword-based system is far more annoying. As someone said, it wastes the player time with "I don't know what you are talking about".

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

If it's there to offer a diplomacy-based path through the game, you can have a number of systems and minigames (I wouldn't mind, for example, to have diplomacy in form of MTG-like card strategy, with cards representing different facts, reputations, rhetoric devices etc.)

I tried to do this exact sort of thing once. It's very difficult. I took inspiration from The Burning Wheel. It developed into a game of its own, which was undesirable. The idea of parallel system for combat, dialogue, and skills felt cumbersome, so I ultimately shelved the concept. It's a neat idea, integration is a challenge. It's been awhile since I gave it any attention.

 

[Ysaye]

Equipment based dialog systems where what you equip affects what is said is an approach which may still have some life to squeeze out of it and feels more game-like and more Wittgensteinian.

Having said that maybe it also leans more towards quest styles being more fetch based. It also may emphasize the choice of clothing etc than one chooses, so may play to the Cosplay market.

 

[DalekFlay]

Sooner or later Bioware is going to have you just pick an emoticon that expresses how you feel and then the character says some random shit. Not that this will be an improvement, but hey it'll be different!

 

[mondblut]

Keywords >>>>>>>>> dialogue weeds.

 

[mondblut]

Sooner or later Bioware is going to have you just pick an emoticon that expresses how you feel and then the character says some random shit.

You are hired!

Well, you would have been if bioware were still around.