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1eyedking The defining core of RPGs

Shadowfang

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What if you are role-playing a retired adventurer who is getting old and loosing attributes as the game goes on?
 
Vatnik
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Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
C&C is a gimmick that's not as good as having a single good storyline
Character builds, classes etc are an autism trap
Player-made characters are never as interesting as premade ones
Combat is done better in other genres

The only things that REALLY matter in an RPG is the aesthetic, the exploration, and the storyline: therefore the best RPG Games are Spyro the Dragon and Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen
 

Mr. Hiver

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Shadowfang

Doesnt make a difference. Its not the direction of development and amount of character abilities that is fundamental, but just the fact that majority of game content and options within it are limited by character skills in a manner where you cannot directly override that with you player skills. What you said would be just a twist on the usual approach, but wouldn't fundamentally change it. You would still be constrained by your character skills and forced to play with them.


BING XI LAO
The only things that REALLY matter in an RPG is the aesthetic, the exploration, and the storyline
Thats a nice sentiment but those features cannot distinguish an RPG from other games.
 
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EldarEldrad

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The main problem with RPG definition is because RPG is not a genre per se! Just look at any other genre' main player activity:
- If you shoot at enemy: it's action
- If you slash enemy: it's slasher
- If you driving a car: it's racing
- If you govern a country/planet, conquer and all this shit: it's 4X
- If you draw frame around units and send them to destroy enemy barracks: it's RTS
But, for RPG main criteria is not player activity, but underlying mechanics. That's why exist, for example, action-RPGs - they are just action games with some RPG-like mechanics.
 

Mr. Hiver

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Its not that simple for other genres either.

You are shooting, slashing and driving cars in many different genres. We did all that in Fallout2, for example.
The defining core feature of RPGs stands out from those other genres specifically because it is unique, although all kinds of hybrids have been made and the whole genre encompasses most of those other blends and mixes. action RPgs, RTS RPGS and whatever else - as long as atleast come content is limited through character skills, stats or other character specific features.

Its not a strict and exact measure, and in various games you get varying degrees of stuff that falls more under the control of character versus player skills, but we have examples of what can be called True RPGs, such as several of golden oldies which were mentioned already by illustrious coughh... members of this prestigious, lol, site.

While several are consecutively voted as best RPGs ever in mega polls done right here.
 

Valky

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I'm a fan of coining RPGs "Roll playing games.". The defining core from this name being that there are dice rolls or (don't need to be dice rolls) some other deterministic set of rules that form the underlying system that gameplay is layered on top of.

edit: My definition might need work because you could beat it with a deconstructing hammer and say that popamole games still have a set of rules that control the gameplay, but in essence I'm preaching to the choir here and you know what I mean when I'm referring to a deterministic set of rules. E.G. The OGL.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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A genealogy of RPGs:

DnD0Eto2Ever2.JPG


RPGs developed from miniatures wargaming but to the pre-existing game mechanics added more relating to character customization/development and to exploration. Since RPGs have the most complex mechanics of any genre of computer game, it's a futile effort to identify one particular mechanic that in itself differentiates the RPG genre from all other genres. The interrelationship between myriad game mechanics is what matters. As a game's mechanics move further away from the ideal of RPG mechanics, the game will eventually become closer to the ideal mechanics of some other genre, at which point it is no longer an RPG.
 

Mr. Hiver

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Most of us here are very well aware of the history of the genre and different games from the pats.
Posting that doesnt achieve anything or adds anything to the subject here - because we ALREADY KNOW THAT.
Thats the basic WE ALL KNOW.

WE KNOW WHAT GAMES ARE RPG GAMES! AND WE KNOW THE HISTORY!

it's a futile effort to identify one particular mechanic that in itself differentiates the RPG genre from all other genres.
Thats a moronic assertion, which is half a strawman, half an empty proclamation with no support, reason or logic.
Of course its not a "single mechanic" - nobody claimed it is.

What defines the genre as sufficiently different from others is the way mechanics are applied.

The clear and undeniable difference to other games is that in RPGs you play THROUGH and WITH your character skills and abilities that you choose at the start and then evolve over time.
But for that to actually work in a RPG specific kind of way - the character abilities HAVE TO impose limits on player skills - otherwise the player would have no incentive to level up and grow their character skills and abilities.

For you to even have the option of 1. creating a character that you differentiate from other character builds
through specific abilities, skills, attributes, traits and similar features, which then 2. creates a role you play by using that character abilities to solve gameplay taks with those specific character abilities that you 3. enhance and evolve through the gameplay by leveling up and acquiring equipment that adds to your character stats or skills, in order to 4. succeed in solving quests and tasks and playing the game...

You need to impose limits on the game content and options within it through those very character abilities that the player cannot simply override by his own skills.



Thats what differentiates an RPG from any other game where you also, one way or another, play with character "abilities and skills" withing specific parameters and or play someones role. Like lara Croft or Gordon Freeman.
Then all the other features and mechanics are added on top of that foundation in a way that supports that basic specific approach.


By the fucking way... if you say:

As a game's mechanics move further away from the ideal of RPG mechanics, the game will eventually become closer to the ideal mechanics of some other genre, at which point it is no longer an RPG.

That means that such specific ideal mechanics exist!
Although of course, you are wrong (because the real difference is not in mechanics) and stuck on the usual arguments about mechanics or combinations of them, which why that idiotic meme of "nobody can define what an RPG is rrreeeeeee!" is still going around. Just because you cant think properly and figure it out DOES NOT MEAN the answer does not exist.
 
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RaptorRex888

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Very interesting! I am elated and agree with your thesis that's it's the limits and constraints that define a true RPG rather than any possibility or potential it affords you.
 

luj1

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The main problem with RPG definition is because RPG is not a genre per se! Just look at any other genre' main player activity:
- If you shoot at enemy: it's action
- If you slash enemy: it's slasher
- If you driving a car: it's racing
- If you govern a country/planet, conquer and all this shit: it's 4X
- If you draw frame around units and send them to destroy enemy barracks: it's RTS
But, for RPG main criteria is not player activity, but underlying mechanics. That's why exist, for example, action-RPGs - they are just action games with some RPG-like mechanics.

At least someone gets it...
:excellent:
 

Mr. Hiver

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Very interesting! I am elated and agree with your thesis that's it's the limits and constraints that define a true RPG rather than any possibility or potential it affords you.

All the potential and possibilities and options RPG games provide cannot exist without limits specifically tied to and imposed by character various abilities.

Its not a impossible conundrum to solve, its obvious; You cant have separate distinct classes or character builds if there are no limits between them, nor could you then have gameplay be different, quests solved in different ways with each of those builds.
 

Master

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I thought this was just common knowledge, that in rpgs character skill overrides player skill.
 

Mr. Hiver

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It is common knowledge, but somehow the general fanbase got stuck arguing over secondary and tertiary mechanics like skills, stats, role playing, "reactivity" and or C&C, and the meme about how its impossible to define what a RPG game is was created and then spread around as if its some absolute truth.
Exacerbated by various hybrids and appropriation of RPG features by other types of games. As well as the fact that there is no strict specific measures of how much character abilities vs player skill should there be.

The truth is they have to work together, of course, and you can only judge by majority of influence on content and gameplay, not specific amounts.

When you apply this specific measuring approach, everything falls into place and differences between true RPGs and various action and other hybrids is clear.

As well as how features such as RT combat or First Person point of view takes away from, or diminishes the core features by their very nature. - although it doesnt necessarily push the game completely out of the genre.
 
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vota DC

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C&C is the thing that turns a game into an RPG.
Take any game, slap C&C onto it = voila, you got an RPG. No matter how shitty the game is, now it's an RPG.
Convince me otherwise.
PS. In before some retardo posts "different way to shoot/stab is an example of C&C".
Unless it is RTS
 

HeatEXTEND

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C&C is a gimmick that's not as good as having a single good storyline
Character builds, classes etc are an autism trap
Player-made characters are never as interesting as premade ones
Combat is done better in other genres

The only things that REALLY matter in an RPG is the aesthetic, the exploration, and the storyline: therefore the best RPG Games are Spyro the Dragon and Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen


Since RPGs have the most complex mechanics of any genre of computer game

Eh not quite, in real life without a doubt on a computer not so much.
 
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Mr. Hiver

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You cant have C&C without limits on different choices and consequences and they have to be imposed by character abilities.

All games have various kinds of C&C but RPGs have a distinct kind because it stems from the character abilities in majority of cases.
Of course, in many lesser RPGs many of those choices in the story and dialogue are given to players and dont depend on any character trait, skill or stat - often found in Action RPGs - which is what makes them lesser RPGs.

Push that too much and the game gets spat out of the genre entirely.
 

HeatEXTEND

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And that's why AoD is now officially without any doubt instated into the honorary extended top 5 best cRPGs ever. Thank you all for coming!*eardeafening applause*
Pi5r5iZ.jpg
 

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