1eyedking The defining core of RPGs

[Mr. Hiver]

Yup, AoD belongs to the True RPG range of the genre.

I wouldnt know about "best five" because thats another matter entirely.
In my analogy in the Op, i believe it would be allowed into Sigil but kept at some bar for Modrons.

-
Modrons would watch the small Iron Tower model sitting on the shelf over the bar or on the mantelpiece with affection, noting approvingly to each other how... mechanical it seems.
Maybe, every once in a while, in a strange rhythm that would make Modrons very pleased small figures would emerge from it and stab each other with exquisite precision.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I....i can't find that one picture where the Nameless One says "I want to be a modron" with the mass effect UI
Someone post it I promise I'll put it on muh USB stick this time ;__

I wouldnt know about "best five" because thats another matter entirely.

No it's not:
Arcanum><Fallout1/2(yes both bite me)><PS:T (Arcanum should be in the middle but this looks better)
AoD><UR

Spoiler

 

[Swigen]

Took me a while to figure it out but I’ve come to the conclusion that the defining core of any good rpg is...

Spoiler

A badass light gun!!

That’s right baby, I’m talking Elemental Gearbolt for the PlayStation One entertainment system!

You know about this gaem? Ohohohohhhhhhh, you better believe I’m gonna tell you about this game. This game is a light gun RPG!!!! You shoot stuff! Y-you have like, abilities! Th-there’s combos a-and levels!!

And jeeziz GOD, look at those TITS!

And it just.... it just breaks my heart that games like this have fallen by the wayside just ‘cause a buncha homos invented shitty skinny tv’s with input lag and the collective world consciousness was just like, “heh, OK sounds good, let’s go with it”. Pretty damn sick way to lose a total core level RPG if you ask me.

 

[DalekFlay]

Reading this whole thread I kind of like the idea that only completely stat-driven turn-based games are pure RPGs and everything else is a hybrid. Like fuck it, it's either that or there is no core definition and it's a vague subjective term. Pick your poison.

 

[Sigourn]

Reading this whole thread I kind of like the idea that only completely stat-driven turn-based games are pure RPGs and everything else is a hybrid. Like fuck it, it's either that or there is no core definition and it's a vague subjective term. Pick your poison.

It's not that there's not a core definition. It's that a lot of members are biased against anything that is not a stat-driven turn-based game.
Especially because stat-driven turn-based game means any squad-based tactical game is an RPG... and by my definition of what makes an RPG, some can be RPGs and others cannot.

 

[Ventidius]

Reading this whole thread I kind of like the idea that only completely stat-driven turn-based games are pure RPGs and everything else is a hybrid. Like fuck it, it's either that or there is no core definition and it's a vague subjective term. Pick your poison.

Stat-driven is not the same as stat-saturated. You can in fact have stat-driven games with third person/first person real-time combat. To be an RPG what matters is that stats are the most important factor for success, not the only one. Dragon's Dogma is a clear example of this, but there are others, like New Vegas. And yeah, RPGs are essentially stat-driven games.

EDIT: Also, "stats" should not here be considered in a narrow sense but rather closer to what JarlFrank is talking about here (emphasis mine):

Doomguy has a max health of 100 (200 with bonus health items like the flasks and soulsphere), does a fixed amount of damage with each weapon, has a fixed movement speed and fixed melee damage.

You can't create different Doomguys, every player plays the same Doomguy. You can't create a Doomguy with 20 less HP but twice the speed, for example.
You also don't level up your Doomguy. His stats stay the same throughout the game. Max health is always 100/200, every weapon's damage and effects stay the same from the moment you pick it up to the end of the game, your movement speed stays the same.

That's the difference.

Doom RL however is an RPG because everyone plays a different Doomguy.

It's not just a matter of having stats that drive the game, but also implementing the possibility of choosing between - and progressing through - different stat-array configurations, while also having those choices have a substantial effect on of the efficacy and nature of the strategies available to you.

 

[Sigourn]

To be an RPG what matters is that stats are the most important factor in success

I disagree with this. We enter a massively nebular territory. Said subjectivity is better left off to "I think X game is a shit RPG because the stats don't matter enough".

 

[hexer]

Didn't Gygax wrote in one of his books, either Role-Playing Mastery or Master of the Game, how he didn't invent RPGs... they already existed in forms such as "Cowboys and Indians" kids game?
So RPG would be a game aka fun activity with some ruleset applied to it, where you pretend to be someone you're not.
It's not rocket science.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Reading this whole thread I kind of like the idea that only completely stat-driven turn-based games are pure RPGs and everything else is a hybrid. Like fuck it, it's either that or there is no core definition and it's a vague subjective term. Pick your poison.

I specifically noted several times its not just about being "stat driven" - which is the usual insufficient argument, but that its specifically about character abilities (like stats, skills and any other) imposed limits on the content and options within it.

Stat-driven is not the same as stat-saturated. You can in fact have stat-driven games with third person/first person real-time combat. To be an RPG what matters is that stats are the most important factor for success, not the only one. Dragon's Dogma is a clear example of this, but there are others, like New Vegas. And yeah, RPGs are essentially stat-driven games.

All games are stat driven. RPG games apply that in a specific ways that differentiate them from other games as a unique genre. - As i specifically said several times over.

The whole genre is a wide spectrum that encapsulates a lot of different approaches to variations between what falls under character stats influence and what is delegated to the player.
Action RPGs are - RPGs, but there is a difference to them that makes them Action RPGs. In cases you mentioned, it is the very application of "third person and first person combat that does that because that gives player skill influence over the majority of gameplay. Which is then slightly, more or less moderated by any stats and skills - which the player can still override to some extent - but not completely.

If you cant override character imposed limits completely - the game still belongs to the RPG genre as some kind of a Action RPG or a hybrid.
if you can - its not. Then its some other type of a game with RPG elements.

EDIT: Also, "stats" should not here be considered in a narrow sense but rather closer to what JarlFrank is talking about here (emphasis mine):
It's not just a matter of having stats that drive the game, but also implementing the possibility of choosing between - and progressing through - different stat-array configurations, while also having those choices have a substantial effect on of the efficacy and nature of the strategies available to you.

Choosing between different stat configurations cannot exist without character abilities imposing limits on and so differences between such mechanics - first.

Didn't Gygax wrote in one of his books, either Role-Playing Mastery or Master of the Game, how he didn't invent RPGs... they already existed in forms such as "Cowboys and Indians" kids game?
So RPG would be a game aka fun activity with some ruleset applied to it, where you pretend to be someone you're not.
It's not rocket science.

Well YES, but - what kind of ruleset exactly? Every game in existence has some kind of a ruleset. So what makes a ruleset - RPG kind? What does it specifically do that different then other rulesets?
Pretending you are somebody you are not is also a part of every game ever made. What is what makes it unique in case of an RPG?

My explanation clarifies both.

 

[hexer]

Well YES, but - what kind of ruleset exactly? Every game in existence has some kind of a ruleset. So what makes a ruleset - RPG kind? What does it specifically do that different then other rulesets?
Pretending you are somebody you are not is also a part of every game ever made. What is what makes it unique in case of an RPG?

My explanation clarifies both.

Game = Fun activity with a ruleset of any sort
Role-playing = Pretending to be someone you're not

I completely disagree that pretending is a part of every game ever made.
When I play soccer , basketball or even Tetris, I'm not pretending anything.

 

[Shaewaroz]

RPG is a game in which you build a harem. Since that's what all of us wants to do anyway. The size of your harem defines your progression in the game as well as your success in life. Muh immersion.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Game = Fun activity with a ruleset of any sort
Role-playing = Pretending to be someone you're not
I completely disagree that pretending is a part of every game ever made.
When I play soccer , basketball or even Tetris, I'm not pretending anything.

- Fine, Almost every game, not literally every game. Or a range of games. (you are pretending you are playing soccer, basketball, and so on, to be completely nitpicky, but thats beside the point anyway)

You should know that larping is not enough.
You play as or with different characters in many games. You are Space Marine in Doom, Gordon Freeman in HL, Lara Croft in Tomb Raiders and so on and so on. Most players dont take that literally, of course.
But there is something that makes that "pretending" be much more then just pretending in RPGs. Especially cRPGs.

And its what i say it is.

It's not that there's not a core definition. It's that a lot of members are biased against anything that is not a stat-driven turn-based game.
Especially because stat-driven turn-based game means any squad-based tactical game is an RPG... and by my definition of what makes an RPG, some can be RPGs and others cannot.

Explain. Squad based tactical games are a close cousin to RPGs, one of the offspring of early wargames out of which RPGs of today eventually evolved. practically the same family. So im interested how you would differentiate.

Again, ill point out im not saying that just being stat based is the core feature, but that character abilities such as stats and others impose limits on the content and options within it - that the player has to choose from at the start, play with and evolve.

 

[DalekFlay]

It's not that there's not a core definition. It's that a lot of members are biased against anything that is not a stat-driven turn-based game.
Especially because stat-driven turn-based game means any squad-based tactical game is an RPG... and by my definition of what makes an RPG, some can be RPGs and others cannot.

I'm more saying unless it has a clear definition like that then it will never have any, so it will always be a subjective debate.

 

[Sigourn]

Explain. Squad based tactical games are a close cousin to RPGs, one of the offspring of early wargames out of which RPGs of today eventually evolved. practically the same family. So im interested how you would differentiate.

1. You must be able to choose your character's skills/stats through character creation, or through character progression. The player must have agency in this process.
   
2. Choice and consequence must be based on your character's skills/stats. This rules out games like Pong ("you choose to go up and you lost the game, that's C&C!") and any game where the only "choice" that exists is that the player chooses to do without any influence of your character's skills/stats, e.g. most of Skyrim's guilds require you to "roleplay" because in reality almost none of them actually demand something out of your character's building: anyone can join the Companions, anyone can join the Dark Brotherhood, anyone can join the Bard's College, anyone can join the Thieves Guild. Almost anyone can join the College of Winterhold, but like I said in a different post, earlier: this doesn't mean the College of Winterhold isn't a proper RPG guild; it just means it's a shit RPG guild when a Barbarian that knows a couple of spells can become the Archmage.

With all that said: a game like Final Fantasy Tactics is an RPG. On the other hand, if I give you a battlefield and tell you "select 10 units" and that is pretty much the game for every single scenario I throw at you, and you have no way to select those units stats and they do not see any stat growth/development, then it is not an RPG. It is a tactical game, sure, but it's not an RPG.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

We agree on that description.

What im saying just clearly explains exactly why and how the "character stats" work to influence whatever content the game has, be it combat, story, quest options, and so any consequences in a way that is unique to RPGs.
Which is what provides the players with ability to build a character that is different then other builds and plays differently. And to evolve and enhance those character stats, skills and whatever else each game system provides.

And of course, bethesda games are example of abominations that can barely be considered to belong to the genre at all precisely because they made character stats so superficial they are barely there and have minimal influence.
On the other hand all the old classics that idiots came here to shout about in previous pages as if someone is trying to steal them - are True RPGs.

I was thinking about X-com and similar squad based tactic games, in which you also have that RPG core ingredient. I guess in that case its kind of constrained and the gameplay or content is focused on that specific style so thats what slightly differentiates them from usual RPGs purely by the type of gameplay.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Final Fantasy Tactics is an RPG.

No it's fucking not. It's a tactical role playing game. Not role playing. Tactical role playing. Don't tell me you never heard of a tactical role playing game. That's what it is. Fuck.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The defining element of an RPG is stat & equipment-based combat.
An RPG without combat is a CYOA novel.
An RPG with barely any story is still regarded as an RPG(see: dungeon rats)

 

[Mr. Hiver]

Yes... fucking again, ... what is that makes stat&equipment-based combat work in a way that is different from other games?
And as i said several times already - many variations on that theme belong to the whole wide genre, yet still there is a difference between them.

Dungeon rats which i havent played, would be a squad based tactical RPG subgenre, or hack and slash form of the same.

An RPG without combat is a CYOA novel.

This is not true because CYOA games have a specific form, - there is no evolution of character stats in them at all, its just you player choosing between different preset options - while a game can have other content then combat and be an RPG.
Not many were ever made, or at all, but there is no real requirement that it has to be about combat alone. Thats a matter of type of content appeal to the market, not the fundamental core mechanic.

 

[Sigourn]

Final Fantasy Tactics is an RPG.

No it's fucking not. It's a tactical role playing game.

Autistic.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Haven't played it so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it's a tactical role playing game. Which it is.

 

[anvi]

Hey OP wanna get high and talk about games n shit?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

• All player interactions intermediated by a statistical mechanic.
• Character customization.

While other things may be hallmarks, like C&C, they are ultimately extraneous to the essential core of an RPG. The above 2 points are non-reducable aspects of ANY RPG.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

How about reading the Op before you post the same thing already posted by others about a dozen times, and about a million times before - fruitlessly, because all video games have that kind of "All player interactions intermediated by a statistical mechanic" systems. Character customization is a feature of RPGs, so it is in many other games in different ways, yet in RPGs it works in a very specific way. It achieves a specific and unique effect.

There is a specific precise reason which differentiates those features and all others various RPGs have, from similar or even same features in other games.

 

[deuxhero]

The most critical thing an RPG must include to be an RPG is "game". You'd think this wouldn't be hard to fufill, but in recent years...

 

[Tweed]

You know, this reminds me of philosophy; it’s just some dude trying to say something super basic and fundamental in as many words as possible

Also, I stand by what I said, low numbers get bigger, big numbers make you feel good.