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System-based design

v1rus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,253
So, I've been reading up a bit on Spectors "immersive sim" theory, and quite often, I'd stumble up on "system-based design", something that I'd had trouble grasping at first, but I think i finally got what the hell those strange people seem to be talking about - a consistent set of abilities and interactions, that allow the player experimentation and freedom of expression, through its consistence.

How do you get the "system-based design", do you think its a good thing, any notorious examples, etc. And, most importantly, how do you design the levels, so you can fully reap the benefits of having a good system-based design.

Discuss.
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
So in new Far Cry games animals attack enemies too? Wow, much systemic. Im pretty sure that kind of stuff was standard since the early nineties, so not sure why its such a big deal now.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
2,453
Location
Romania
So in new Far Cry games animals attack enemies too? Wow, much systemic. Im pretty sure that kind of stuff was standard since the early nineties, so not sure why its such a big deal now.
Because the AAA industry started using them and presenting them as being innovative. Others know better. Most don't.
 

Child of Malkav

Erudite
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
2,453
Location
Romania
So, I've been reading up a bit on Spectors "immersive sim" theory, and quite often, I'd stumble up on "system-based design", something that I'd had trouble grasping at first, but I think i finally got what the hell those strange people seem to be talking about - a consistent set of abilities and interactions, that allow the player experimentation and freedom of expression, through its consistence.

How do you get the "system-based design", do you think its a good thing, any notorious examples, etc. And, most importantly, how do you design the levels, so you can fully reap the benefits of having a good system-based design.

Discuss.
System based design is my favorite considering I grew up with games that used it a lot. Like Deus Ex (most famous), Thief, System Shock, Dark Messiah, Dishonored, Prey 2017 etc.
In my opinion, you design a level depending on what systems you want to simulate.
For example, in Thief you had rope and vine arrows, which allowed you to climb over obstacles. Rope arrows would work on anything made of wood so you needed tall buildings, balconies, trees or other placements made out of wood in order to allow you to enter or exit a location using the rope arrows. Vine arrows stuck to metallic vents so you need those as well. You account for this in the design of your level thus introducing verticality.
This is one example.
In Dark Mesiah you had a dedicated kick button which allowed to kick (and kill) enemies close to ledges, close to spikes, fires etc. You had an enemy running at you and you could make a small patch of ice in front of him in order to slip and fall allowing you a clean kill, or slip off ledges or down the stairs. Electrocute the water, grab objects with telekinesis and use them as weapons, full adrenaline TK allows for grabbing of living entities for maximum lols, charm enemies making them fight their allies, drop objects on their heads etc.
If you want a more recent example, it would be Prey 2017, a phenomenal immersive sim. Very open ended, lots of tools, my favorite being the gloo gun, stun gun, crossbow. The abilities, approaches, options and arsenal combinations you can make are amazing.
Examples: floating enemies can be glooed and fall and take damage or sometimes die, you can use gloo to make staircases, shooting them diagonally at a wall. Stun gun deals massive damage to enemies weak to electricity, can use to disrupt electronic equipment and stun enemies.
The crossbow that fires foam bolts can be used to distract enemies to sneak by them, or interact with various computer screens and buttons allowing you to open doors remotely.
Abilities like leverage (lift heavy objects), mimic (shapeshift into an object), remote manipulation (remote interaction with objects and enemies), phantom genisis (creating allies that fight for you), lift (creates a vortex under an enemy to keep him in the air for 15 sec), hacking, repairing and others open up a lot of possibilities.
The DLC Mooncrash adds new things and systems to the mix, expanding what is already in the base game. Too much to talk about.
Best you watch some videos about it on YouTube. Compilations or tips and tricks or elaborate uses and combinations so you can get a better idea about this whole thing.

Edit: forgot to mention Metal Gear Solid V The Phantom Pain which has a ton of interaction between systems.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,820
Location
Italy
So in new Far Cry games animals attack enemies too? Wow, much systemic. Im pretty sure that kind of stuff was standard since the early nineties, so not sure why its such a big deal now.
doom had already "you either make monsters fight themselves or you'll not survive this level". but of course it's considered something new: look at the latest ass creep, "stunning new system never seen before: no omniscient quest gps, you now have to read texts to understand! such groundbreak! so shock! wow!".
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
No gps? Damn thats hardcore. With this pace maybe in a couple of decades they invent videogames again.
 
Unwanted

Elephantman

Unwanted
Joined
Apr 8, 2019
Messages
253
Its a word to flashbang dummies into thinking you know something they dont and actually know what you are doing.
Then 12 year olds, who are literally younger than some PCs I have running... will make Jewtube videos blabbering idiotic trash about "The Rise of the Systemic Game" and other 12 year olds will post them on forums.
Meanwhile those S i M u L a T i O n S will work like trash, be laughable hacks, and break if you poke em gently.

One of the first instances is Syndicate, of all things... You know, Peter Molyfakes?
And their driving cars.

Lotsa people are so dumb, it hurts to watch.
 

Duckard

Augur
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
354
how do you design the levels, so you can fully reap the benefits of having a good system-based design.

RatTower made a great post about his game on our very own GRPGD that I think is relevant to building out content for a systems driven game.

As for the system itself, this writeup on emergence is a good starting point, but a bit heavy on theory. To put it into practice, one of the contributors recommended building out an interaction matrix like so:

NfHNeLB.png
 

Alpan

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,340
Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Wrath
Playing Dwarf Fortress for a day will give you a better idea about system-based design than any video.

At any rate, the name itself is a misdirection from the real objective, which is emergent gameplay. Emergent gameplay is something that innately exists in multiplayer games (making them infinitely replayable) but is a bit of a holy grail for single-player experiences.
 

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