Cael
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2017
- Messages
- 20,562
Diablo 2, of course! Duh! Skill trees, cooldowns and mana. What is there not to like in a cRPG spell casting system?
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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]
- Thread starter Belegarsson
- Start date
Curratum
Guest
Baldur's Gate 3, when it's out and it's fabulous! Where is that rainbow emote... Seriously, though, I don't hate IE games, it's just Vancian magic is a product of the 70s that needs to go away, it's 40 years later, come on... ESPECIALLY in a video game.
Curratum
Guest
Such as... FP shooters and sims you like the most? And thats not even an answer to the argument we were having. Brainz, what are those?
lest remind everyone of your tastes
I don't see how me liking shooters somehow doesn't allow me to like RPGs. I have been playing, studying and designing tabletop RPG systems for a decade and a half and have more understanding of systems and system design than your big brain can handle, but I suppose the only true RPGs to you are CRPGs so none of this means anything to you. :D
volklore
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2018
- Messages
- 1,654
Vancian casting in videogames, I have never been a fan of. Because DnD videogames are notoriously more combat heavy, games that introduce some form of rest economy make spellslots casters worse(kingmaker is the best example for this, sorcerers are just better wizards throughout the whole game). The alternative is BG style Rest-Spam which I dont really like either. So I can't say I am so attached to Vancian casting. The main question is : why the fuck go through all those length to get the BG license if 1) the story has nothing to do with BG1 and 2 and 2) Big, iconic parts of DnD rules are being cut ?
All magic systems have their drawbacks:
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime, or die, reload, and prepare spells for the encounter that killed you. It would be nice if you had some way to gather information about your opponent, to tailor make a spell list to counter them, but unfortunately, it happens in tabletop games only (unless reading the codex/steam guides counts as gathering information).
But unlike a generic mana system, the Vancian system at least encourages you to use spells of every level. Mana risks ending up even more focused, as you would always cast the most mana effective spell (maybe one single target spell, one neutralization spell, and one AoE spell).
Edit: Ok, this was a large exageration, but still, unless you get specific encounter knowledge, this really encourages you to always use the same spells, as the other ones are not available.
That is why I usually prefer the way sorcerers work, but they are limited at the spell selection stage, so in a way, they get even less chance to use unusual spells.
Cooldowns encourage you to rotate all of your spells, but that don't work too well if you want to make spell power a resource, as it basically removes the spell resource element from the equation (unless you have spells with a cooldown of 24 hour, but then, you could as well use the Vancian system), so there is very little downside to using your most powerful spells whenever they are ready.
The vancian system encourages you to either use the same generic damage spells everytime, or die, reload, and prepare spells for the encounter that killed you. It would be nice if you had some way to gather information about your opponent, to tailor make a spell list to counter them, but unfortunately, it happens in tabletop games only (unless reading the codex/steam guides counts as gathering information).
But unlike a generic mana system, the Vancian system at least encourages you to use spells of every level. Mana risks ending up even more focused, as you would always cast the most mana effective spell
Edit: Ok, this was a large exageration, but still, unless you get specific encounter knowledge, this really encourages you to always use the same spells, as the other ones are not available.
That is why I usually prefer the way sorcerers work, but they are limited at the spell selection stage, so in a way, they get even less chance to use unusual spells.
Cooldowns encourage you to rotate all of your spells, but that don't work too well if you want to make spell power a resource, as it basically removes the spell resource element from the equation (unless you have spells with a cooldown of 24 hour, but then, you could as well use the Vancian system), so there is very little downside to using your most powerful spells whenever they are ready.
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The irony of people in charge of designing a game about C&C unable to actually chose their audience, design fundations etc never cease to amuse me.
If Larian - say - wants to target the DOS2 audience, then they have to fully commit on it. When you start to bargain and attempt to cover multiple fronts at once, you're fucked. Ask Sawyer.
If Larian - say - wants to target the DOS2 audience, then they have to fully commit on it. When you start to bargain and attempt to cover multiple fronts at once, you're fucked. Ask Sawyer.
Curratum
Guest
See, when you're saying shit like this, it shows a massive disconnect from the reality of what D&D is at the moment, worldwide. For every two clueless newcomers to the hobby who just bought their 5e PHB, there's one DIY enthusiast who has been working on homebrew and tweaking rules for years. If you actually followed those sizable online communities, you'd know that a tiny handful of people are still painfully attached to Vancian and everyone is trying new things. Do those things always work better? Most likely not, but it's the willingness to try something new.
At the same time, the lot of you braindead know-it-alls who think you understand a lot about RPG design because you played a 20-year-old game to death, are stuck in your little echo chamber and speak with authority even though your authority is based on such a narrow view of what D&D is at the moment, it's not even funny.
Mr. Hiver
Dumbfuck!
- Joined
- May 8, 2018
- Messages
- 705
There you go making proclamations that you cant explain, tell us again how a game hurt you by being unfair and you could just spam save load and failed again... and again, and again.
And you just selectively go blind to your own words, eh? Just shifting goal posts and making idiotic proclamations because they make you feel cool.
Systems design... lol, i bet.
You still havent explained how can one prepare for an encounter you dont know in advance. Whats your secret RPG sensei haha?
Have you never ever scouted a location?
Have you never ever bothered to read the quests, talk to some NPCs, judge according tot he environment? and whats so wrong about occassionaly receiving a whooping, retreating and coming back again better prepared?
Is it too slow? Not awesome enough?
Its not action, action, action, awesome button enough?
ahahaha.
And you just selectively go blind to your own words, eh? Just shifting goal posts and making idiotic proclamations because they make you feel cool.
Systems design... lol, i bet.
You still havent explained how can one prepare for an encounter you dont know in advance. Whats your secret RPG sensei haha?
Dear man... you carry a tag of a developer so a better answer is expected from you.
Have you never ever scouted a location?
Have you never ever bothered to read the quests, talk to some NPCs, judge according tot he environment? and whats so wrong about occassionaly receiving a whooping, retreating and coming back again better prepared?
Is it too slow? Not awesome enough?
Its not action, action, action, awesome button enough?
Delterius
Arcane
welcome to crpg codex a website which, curiously, talks about game systems in computer games and the gazebo is an autism containment zone
Curratum
Guest
All the worse, when the forumers can't comprehend why something that used to sorta work in tabletop becomes even worse when dropped in a video game.
Mr. Hiver
Dumbfuck!
- Joined
- May 8, 2018
- Messages
- 705
Hey shitface, youre the cretin who cant explain any of the proclamations he makes. Dont go shitting your superiority while you are exposing yourself for a ludicrous dumbfuck.
it just makes you into an even bigger cretin and a pathetic turd.
Lilura
RPG Codex Dragon Lady
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2013
- Messages
- 5,274
The Vancian magic system is the province of the elite; so much so, that only the likes of ToEE, Goldbox and Swordflight illustrate its supremacy in computer games. In other words, you need elite game designers, and they're rare.
Delterius
Arcane
it works p good in kingmaker
Is Kingmaker a marked improvement though? It's just glorified BG2 resting system with annoying bloat. I feel like the Time Limit and not being able to rest in dungeons without rations in P:K are the differentiating factors, not the resting "system" itself.
Lilura
RPG Codex Dragon Lady
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2013
- Messages
- 5,274
Swordflight is supreme in regard to rest restrictions and refined itemization tailored to the Vancian magic system. Kingmaker is for fucking newbies.
Mortmal
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2009
- Messages
- 9,185
Gazebo is not autism containment ,its more like a tea saloon for gentlemen with refined tastes. We even do pen and paper rpg .
Curratum
Guest
I've found more people who make sense and understand what's good fun in RPG in the Gazebo than in here, curiously.
Any classless video games/RPGs that use vancian casting? I'd like to see it. Cugel never chose wizard on level up imo.
Delterius
Arcane
lol nwn modules
News at eleven - PnP will always be the superior RP experience. The game can't match the DM.
Delterius
Arcane
Codexia is like different layers of hell, as each forum maintains a different garden for the autism. Just as Prosper rules in the Prosperium, so does Grunker in the Gazebo.
Wow, you are fucking retarded. The only good use of a mage at lower levels is to cast spells like Horror, Web, Color Spray, Grease, Sleep, Dispel, Monster Summoning.. and only an occasional use of fireballs or magic missile to 'rrupt somebody.
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