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Epic Games Store - the console war comes to PC

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
"Consumers demanding ethical fulfillment of a business transaction as it was presented to them before they paid is EXACTLY the same thing as femilards with no interest or investment in the product trying to bully Japanese developers into making the female characters flat and shapeless."

DalekFlay, leading gaming industry expert
 

Cromwell

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Still I wouldnt buy from them again. Changing their minds after people got angry is not enough in this Case because it isnt a case of "well we didnt expect you feel this strongly about X" its a Case of "well, so you really did not like us fucking you in the ass with a sledgehammer who would have thunk it?".

I could forgive companies for pandering to sjws when for whatever reason they think they are a paying majority (although it should be clear now that thats not the case). But this situation was clear cut from the start so it shouldnt earn them any goodwill to change things back now.
 

Rahdulan

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"Consumers demanding ethical fulfillment of a business transaction as it was presented to them before they paid is EXACTLY the same thing as femilards with no interest or investment in the product trying to bully Japanese developers into making the female characters flat and shapeless."

DalekFlay, leading gaming industry expert

Major sticking point is some believe Kickstarter is the equivalent of buying a product ahead of time or investing in a specific product, when in reality it's more akin to donating to a common goal and getting something out of it at some point. I agree with having to deliver on what you promised under that initial pitch that got people to give you their money for in the first place.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
I'm just cautioning you on celebrating the power of loud people on social media making companies change things they don't like.
oh, ok. we'll have to watch out for "loud people" on social media them. :roll:

kind of a broad category there, dude.
It's gonna fuck you in the ass way more than it helps you.
you do realize that it's been used hundreds, if not thousands of times negatively and positively already, right?

I mean, if indeed all mass complaints fit into the same category of "loud people" AND this were a can of worms, we're hardly the ones opening it.
"Consumers demanding ethical fulfillment of a business transaction as it was presented to them before they paid is EXACTLY the same thing as femilards with no interest or investment in the product trying to bully Japanese developers into making the female characters flat and shapeless."

DalekFlay, leading gaming industry expert
This. Historically, companies have usually tried to listen to their customers. It's just smart business.

The problem is when people who aren't the target niche get involved just to change things for the sake of politics or their personal gripes.

It could take the form of an outcry on social media, or it could take the form of a fat, pink haired feminist writing/rewriting plotlines and characters for political reasons.

It could also take the form of game journos trying to shame developers for making their game too hard, or busibody senators trying to please soccer moms by legislating censorship.

Social media and "loud people" are not themselves the problem. ACTUAL consumer outcry is necessary feedback sometimes, both for companies and the industry as a whole. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Major sticking point is some believe Kickstarter is the equivalent of buying a product ahead of time or investing in a specific product, when in reality it's more akin to donating to a common goal and getting something out of it at some point.
probably because kickstarters are often marketed specifically as if you are getting something ahead of time.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity
Pledge US$ 20 or more
For early backers only! DIGITAL DOWNLOADABLE COPY OF PROJECT ETERNITY. This limited price point is only available for the first backers of PROJECT ETERNITY. All Kickstarter backers will receive a special Kickstarter only in-game achievement and item. (The item will not affect the game's balance). Includes Cooking with Tim – An RPG-themed e-Cookbook, and Making of Project Eternity Documentary (streaming).

ESTIMATED DELIVERY
Apr 2014
Looks like a preorder with bonuses to me.

also, a lot of wise companies now understand that kickstarter is more of a marketing tool than it is a way to fund a complete project. they really are just offering preorders and hoping to generate excitement and buzz by having a group of core excited and invested fans.

not that we've ever seen such invested fans shill games on RPG forums or demand neutral-positive reviews or anything, right? :M
 

DalekFlay

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This. Historically, companies have usually tried to listen to their customers. It's just smart business.

The problem is when people who aren't the target niche get involved just to change things for the sake of politics or their personal gripes.

It's not just about niches, it's about small minorities that make a big stink and effect the majority. You have zero idea how many people actually are bothered by using the Epic Store instead of Steam, so you don't really have any idea how different it is from say the 5% of the Call of Duty audience that is female throwing a hissy fit about boob armor or whatever you're hinting at. I agree in this case getting them to deliver on what they promised is the path of the righteous man, but this power is used for evil as much as it is for good. The more giving loud social media posts a lot of power becomes the norm, the more fucked over we'll be by radical asshats screaming like babies.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
It's not just about niches, it's about small minorities that make a big stink and effect the majority.
again, the point that's been made to you is that it's not the same as feminists targeting games they don't really give a shit about.
You have zero idea how many people actually are bothered by using the Epic Store instead of Steam
I am. So that's at least one.
so you don't really have any idea how different it is from say the 5% of the Call of Duty audience that is female throwing a hissy fit about boob armor or whatever you're hinting at.
you tell me. you're the one who hinted first.

barely 7% of COD fans are female according to some estimates, so I really doubt even 5% of the COD would be involved in such a decision.

again, it's nothing to do with numbers. It's about the target audience. The people who the game was originally for. Even if it's 2 people.

And even if they weren't different, which they are, complaints are a tool in the toolbox. Not all wrenches should be banned from use just because someone murders someone else with one. Not all guns should be banned because an enemy kills one of your allies with one.

And more importantly, your personal refusal to use the tool of complaint will not stop the other side from using it to their ends, as they've done countless times now.

The more giving loud social media posts a lot of power becomes the norm, the more fucked over we'll be by radical asshats screaming like babies.
It's been "the norm" since before social media and the internet existed. Boycots, protests, letter writing campaigns. Your granddad probably saw as much of this stuff as you do now, albeit over different issues.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Complain louder. Show companies what actual customers think.

This worked with USAA when they pulled ads from FoxNews based on SJWs threatening to cancel their nonexistant accounts with them. (A mostly military bank whose customers are worried about social justice? Not likely.)

Thousands of calls from actual customers threatening to pull their money out of their bank and they changed their minds.
 
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DalekFlay

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It's been "the norm" since before social media and the internet existed. Boycots, protests, letter writing campaigns. Your granddad probably saw as much of this stuff as you do now, albeit over different issues.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Complain louder. Show companies what actual customers think.

This worked with USAA when they pulled ads from FoxNews based on SJWs threatening to cancel their nonexistant accounts with them. (A mostly military bank whose customers are worried about social justice? Not likely.)

Thousands of calls from actual customers threatening to pull their money out of their bank and they changed their minds.

I agree with all this, but I think you're making a distinction between this case and the EGS shit that doesn't necessarily exist. It's not a hill I want to die on though, so whatever.
 

Zombra

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Major sticking point is some believe Kickstarter is the equivalent of buying a product ahead of time or investing in a specific product, when in reality it's more akin to donating to a common goal and getting something out of it at some point. I agree with having to deliver on what you promised under that initial pitch that got people to give you their money for in the first place.
Yeah, it's dumb to think of kickstarter as a store, but promising a pledge reward and then going ehhhhhhh, we changed our minds about that because someone paid us to and for no other reason, come on man, that fucking sucks.
 

Ironmonk

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I don't know if anyone came up with this idea already... I just checked on Steam and if you visit Deep Silver publisher/developer page on Steam you can set a option to ignore games published/developed by them.

Maybe they can see the number of people ignoring their games? If that is the case, wouldn't be interesting if people that contributed to the kickstarter (and maybe others) start a campaing to put them into the ignore list to raise the pressure?
 

Dexter

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Major sticking point is some believe Kickstarter is the equivalent of buying a product ahead of time or investing in a specific product, when in reality it's more akin to donating to a common goal and getting something out of it at some point. I agree with having to deliver on what you promised under that initial pitch that got people to give you their money for in the first place.
Yeah, it's dumb to think of kickstarter as a store, but promising a pledge reward and then going ehhhhhhh, we changed our minds about that because someone paid us to and for no other reason, come on man, that fucking sucks.
It's not "dumb", it's exactly what it is. There is no difference between KickStarter and a Store Pre-Order for the law, for one even KickStarter's own terms state that:
Kickstarter’s terms of use make clear that companies are legally obligated to fulfill the promised rewards or provide consumer refunds. On the website it states: “When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.”

But that wouldn't matter, since once you enter into a purchase agreement with money in exchange for wares to a third party, they better fulfill it or there'll be hell to pay. It can come to FTC fines, AG offices coming after you or Class Action Lawsuits and even bankrupt your company and/or you personally, here's some reading:
https://associatesmind.com/2015/10/26/the-coming-age-of-kickstarter-class-actions/
https://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/ag-makes-crowdfunded-company-pay-shady-deal
https://www.businessinsider.com/how...ckstarter-made-an-average-guy-bankrupt-2013-1

Some people keep saying shit like "KickStarter is just Donations!" or "KickStarter is an Investment!" or other stupid shit like that, this is wishful thinking on their part and not a legal argument or analysis of the situation. If you don't want to deliver a product and get sued into bankruptcy, better not promise it in exchange for a specific amount of money in the first place. Just promise a "Thank You" E-Mail or something that you know you can deliver, and say that you're trying your best or whatever, because once something is done, it's done. If you defraud or trick people and plan on not delivering what you promised and don't offer refunds, you might get away with it because it's such a tiny amount of money they won't complain or press any charges, or the Backers are super-fans in the first place and not particularly ill disposed towards you and understanding of your plight, but all the legal risks are on you and Backers just need to initiate the legal process to get their due.
 
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Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
The notion that squandering donations is somehow ethical or generally supported by the rule of law is absolutely moronic in the first place, and anyone who's ever said something like "They're donations!" in this context can be safely dismissed as a species of lower primate.

In most cases, the legal salvation of crowdfunding scammers is a modicum of plausible evidence that their project began in good faith, and that they tried to fulfill their obligations, but simply failed. No system of laws worth shelving will mete out the same punishment for failure that it would for deliberate, premeditated con-artistry. Often, it was a scam all along, but the scammers scrape together enough obfuscating gibberish and paper trails to ensure reasonable doubt.
 

Solid Snail

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I only know it's ridiculous Ys Net/Deep Silver are taking so much time to put out a decent, clear answer.
 

cvv

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Kickstarter is definitely not like a pre-order store, it's a place where people can provide angel contributions to unfinished projects. There is no consumer protection shielding you but the creators are bound by contractual law so if they fail do deliver you can take them to the civil court and the court will decide if the creators failed despite good faith effort (in which case you get jack shit) or if they're just straight up con artists.

Mind you, the states, feds and courts do punish crowdfunding fraud but afaik only explicit cons like "dude grabbed money and ran". At least I've never heard of any more complicated case. I suspect in situations like "dude promised the game will be on Steam but womp womp it's an EGS exclusive instead" the court wouldn't even hear the case.
 
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Silentstorm

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Doesn't Kickstarter say that as well, that they are there to help people fund projects, not buy projects, it's just that quite a few projects have tiers which give you a copy of the game later on, which, yeah, if they don't deliver said copy then the developers are assholes.

But by itself, Kickstarter doesn't mean you get the game or all the content, just means you helped the game get made.
 

Blaine

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Kickstarter is definitely not like a pre-order store, it's a place where people can provide angel contributions to unfinished projects.

No, it most definitely is a pre-order store. That's how the projects are presented by project creators, and the promise of a reward is the reason why the vast majority of people pony up. They're promised a product and they expect that product to be delivered.

Whether or not the site says something different on a page linked in 8-point font at the bottom of the landing page that no one reads has minimal relevance to the way the site is actually used in practice.

If it's strictly an angel donations site, then they should ban rewards. Oh wait, pledges would drop by nine-tenths... fancy that.
 

Dexter

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But by itself, Kickstarter doesn't mean you get the game or all the content, just means you helped the game get made.
How do you argue with this? You can present that this is exactly what it is and has been found by law to be e.g.:
King County Superior Court Commissioner Henry Judson ordered Edward J. Polchlopek III, otherwise known as Ed Nash, and his company, Altius Management, to pay $54,851 as a result of the 2012 “Asylum Playing Cards” Kickstarter campaign.

The court ordered a total of $668 in restitution for the 31 Washington state backers, $31,000 in civil penalties for violating the state Consumer Protection Act ($1,000 per violation), and $23,183 to cover the costs and fees involved in bringing the case.

“Washington state will not tolerate crowdfunding theft,” said Ferguson. “If you accept money from consumers, and don’t follow through on your obligations, my office will hold you accountable.”
But this person FEELS it's different from buying a product, so it HAS to be, he KNOWS so.

Btw.: https://www.githyp.com/fortnites-ce...rship-compared-to-last-years-event-on-twitch/

Tick Tock, Sweeney, Tick Tock
 
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I'd prefer to back Kickstarter projects that either offer nothing or offer rewards that are easy to implement.
Physical rewards being the worst offender.
I want you to make a product, stop spending the money on other shit.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The obligation on Kickstarter seems to be to make an honest effort to deliver something. Neal Stephenson's CLANG (remember that?) failed horribly but got away with it because they'd delivered a shitty demo which allowed them to say "Hey, we tried, mission accomplished!". So I don't think giving backers their game on one free digital platform instead of the other is going to qualify as some actionable breach of contract.
 

Dexter

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The obligation on Kickstarter seems to be to make an honest effort to deliver something. Neal Stephenson's CLANG (remember that?) failed horribly but got away with it because they'd delivered a shitty demo which allowed them to say "Hey, we tried, mission accomplished!". So I don't think giving backers their game on one free digital platform instead of the other is going to qualify as some actionable breach of contract.
The legal obligation is to deliver what was promised (money for product) or offer refunds. CLANG did deliver a software/"game" as promised and offered refunds for the people who asked:
By combing through comment threads and emails we have identified around two dozen CLANG backers who have asked for refunds. Those have already been processed; those people have their money back (about $700 altogether).
Presumably they did enough and showed enough good will for people to not actively feel screwed enough to pursue litigation, which doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do anything illegal though. Again, if you do a KickStarter (or other Crowdfunding) campaign, better not offer people products you can't or won't deliver in the hope of more money.
 

cvv

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No, it most definitely is a pre-order store.

No u!

But seriously...if it WAS just a pre-order store than every single failure to deliver on a promise would be prosecuted, regardless of circumstance or intention. If you pre-order a vibrating dildo and you get only a plain old boring dildo without the vibrator you can ask for your money back. And if the store refuses saying "sorry brah we really tried but you know how it is, risk and all that" the authorities WILL stomp on them, no ifs, ands or buts.

When it comes to crowdfunding tho it's a much greyer area. Yes the FTC does prosecute failed projects but in all the cases I could find it's only when the creators straight up grab the money and run, i.e. don't show enough good faith to accommodate the donors. There's this whole thing:

In a statement to The Verge, the FTC said, “FTC investigations are nonpublic so we generally don’t comment on whether we are investigating a company or not.
...
The FTC only once publicly investigated a crowdfunding campaign in 2015.....At the time, the FTC said it was okay with the core idea of crowdfunding and the risks involved, but it did want to make sure backers’ money truly went toward a product and that creators didn’t run off with it. “Consumers should be able to trust their money will actually be spent on the project they funded,” said Jessica Rich, who was the then-director of the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection.

The boldened part tells you that the FTC sees crowdfunding differently from a simple pre-order. HOW differently tho and where exactly is the line, well that's the grey area. Ultimately backers would have to sue Suzuki and the court would have to produce some sort of precedent. Until then it's all speculation.
 

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