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RTwP is the Same as TB the Only Difference Being You Pick The T

Strange Fellow

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't consider it a contrived mechanic. It's actually integral to good turn-based combat with guns. QED.

Edit: I should add that realism is a secondary concern at most and if you hold realism above fun you are a massive tool.
 
Vatnik
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Overwatch: contrived bandaid.

Autopause: Realism at its finest

:D
Autopause lets you issue commands while everything is static; that should sound very, very familiar to a Turnbased apologist. It's also a vitally useful convenience feature, not a game mechanic - unlike overwatch, so there is no comparison.
If autopause is unrealistic, then Turnbased is vastly more so, since it always has everything but 1 actor paused.
 

Saduj

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Not really. In your example, Autopause is alerting you to the enemy having done something smart so that you can react before you pay for it.

In a turn based unless I thought ahead and assigned someone to watch that area, an enemy who sets up an ambush rightfully gets their free shot.

Edit: and how the fuck is overwatch “contrived” considering it is a real life tactic?
 
Vatnik
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Not really. In your example, Autopause is alerting you to the enemy having done something smart so that you can react before you pay for it.

In a turn based unless I thought ahead and assigned someone to watch that area, an enemy who sets up an ambush rightfully gets their free shot.

Edit: and how the fuck is overwatch “contrived” considering it is a real life tactic?
In my example, it's a corridor with one guy advancing down it towards an enemy he knows is there because he keeps getting shot at. It's not smart, or even an ambush, and there is no decision about where you're watching, because it's simply the end of the corridor you're moving towards. This new scenario you're discussing with a smart ambush, where the angle of attack is hard to predict, would be a good counter-example though.

Using autopause to shoot back immediately and using Overwatch to shoot back immediately are basically the same thing in the corridor scenario - just that the game design is more elegant in the first case, because you can control your character in the normal way instead of needing a specific mechanic. There is however a difference in your counter-example, where you don't know where the shot will come from, because you have to decide where to aim your overwatch in advance, whereas the autopause user doesn't need to plan at all. However, a RTWP game could still handle that by simply giving characters turnrates. Besides which, it is already possible to snipe with impunity in RTWP if your animation is quicker than the reacting attack.

Overwatch is contrived because it is a specific, tacked-on mechanic to fix a problem that doesn't exist in RTWP. Sure, it makes sense for guns, or X-COM, but I've been trashtalking Turnbased as applied to RPGs, not Chess or X-COM or Jagged Alliance. Turnbased and Overwatch are fine when you have hair-trigger high-damage attacks, but is there a game out there where you can put your archer into overwatch mode? Honest question, I have no idea.
 

Saduj

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In my example, it's a corridor with one guy advancing down it towards an enemy he knows is there because he keeps getting shot at. It's not smart, or even an ambush, and there is no decision about where you're watching, because it's simply the end of the corridor you're moving towards. This new scenario you're discussing with a smart ambush, where the angle of attack is hard to predict, would be a good counter-example though.

Fair enough. IMO, the only problem with the hallway example is that it is almost always going to be a PC kiting an AI controlled character. And the AI is never going to think "Hey that guy who went around the corner could be waiting to shoot me, maybe I save some AP for overwatch". If the PC is going down the hall and knows there is an enemy at the end and still uses all his AP to run down the hall, that's a choice.

Edit: The other thing is that in many games, hallway kiting is only possible in areas with tough enemies. In Atom RPG, I had to do it to beat the last two fights in the game. Without it, there is no way my character would have survived more than a couple of rounds. And even then it was more like my character was running for his life the whole time and when an enemy would come around a corner, I would get one shot off before running again. I was never camped around a corner.

It easier to exploit bad AI in turn based games, mostly because in RTWP the shitty AI is controlling the PC's guys much of the time too.


is there a game out there where you can put your archer into overwatch mode? Honest question, I have no idea.

Can't think of an example but probably.
 
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Puteo

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In RTWP: oh that guy is peeking out at the end of the corridor, I can shoot at him when he does so

Why is anyone acknowledging this as being an even vaguely positive point for RTwP? In real life, if someone is advancing on you down a hallway while you are behind the corner and you both have ranged weapons; you have a massive fucking advantage against them.

You barely need to expose yourself to shoot at them and you have a reflex advantage when you do. It's called "peekers advantage", "cutting the pie", or just plain "being in fucking cover when that idiot isn't". If you, the guy whining about "muh reflex games" actually played a tactical shooter once in your life you would know that.

In RTwP, the person who should have advantage would step out, and like he says, the game would pause and both units would have the same time and chance to hit each other with the corner not being factored in at all; which is completely idiotic and unrealistic.

Therefore, in the strawman TBS system the outcome is far more realistic even if it doesn't look so. The unit peeking has significant advantage. In a proper system with overwatch or interrupts, they intentionally put a lowered chance to hit on overwatch shots and a significant amount of reflex skill is required to even make them, matching real life even more.
 

Quillon

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You barely need to expose yourself to shoot at them and you have a reflex advantage when you do. It's called "peekers advantage", "cutting the pie", or just plain "being in fucking cover when that idiot isn't". If you, the guy whining about "muh reflex games" actually played a tactical shooter once in your life you would know that.

In RTwP, the person who should have advantage would step out, and like he says, the game would pause and both units would have the same time and chance to hit each other with the corner not being factored in at all; which is completely idiotic and unrealistic.

Therefore, in the strawman TBS system the outcome is far more realistic even if it doesn't look so. The unit peeking has significant advantage. In a proper system with overwatch or interrupts, they intentionally put a lowered chance to hit on overwatch shots and a significant amount of reflex skill is required to even make them, matching real life even more.

That's the essence of why RTwP is superior to TB, cos "looking realistic" is far more important than realistic results in a video game. Also this is just an anomaly, RTwP is generally far more realistic than TB. Any RTwP game done slightly right(DAO) will always have the edge over TB in reception. DAO's 3D/rotatable cam, smaller party, much slower combat animations made it far more acceptable & manageable for a wider audience, despite its inferior ruleset.

Obsidian is responsible for "TB is superior" illusion nowadays. They made RTwP games only the hardcore RTwP fans can deal with and failed in wider reception, and now they put the blame on RTwP rather than their execution of it.
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

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Blobbers aren't turn-based, they are phase-based

Technically seen phase-based could be a subcategory of turn-based, as in "your whole party makes a turn" and "whole enemy party makes a turn".
 
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Grauken

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Blobbers aren't turn-based, they are phase-based

Technically seen phase-based could be a subcategory of turn-based, as in "your whole party makes a turn" and "whole enemy party makes a turn".

Sure, but I think phase-based (Wizardry) and turn-based (Goldbox) are different enough to make that distinction. It's not me being a detail-nazi, but turn-based and RTwP are similar in one regard that is different from phase-based combat, in that chars can attack individual enemies, whether in real-time or on their own turns, whereupon most (*) phase-based combat is usually of the variety where your chars attack groups of enemies, but can't target specific enemies in that group (except of that groups is just one enemy).

(*) There are a number of phase-based blobbers where you can attack individual enemies, so my point gets fuzzy here, and if we consider M&M-type turn-based blobbers we're back to the old argument
 

Grauken

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I think you’re just being an autist now Fairfax. DQ not turn-based? Now that’s absurd.

The early DQs nicked the combat from Wizardry, but then allowed to target individual enemies, so it's a mix of phase-based and turn-based, and depending of how you define it, could argue its not really TB (if you decide that TB needs to have assigned action and resolution at once, not the declaration phase for actions and then the resolution phase for actions).
 

whydoibother

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Fucking a guy is the same as fucking a girl only difference being youre fucking a mans hairy asshole instead of a womans tight pussy.
Clearly you haven't fucked a tight german girl in her hairy ass. The difference is that man have hair everywhere else....or more accurately they don't shave it.
Clearly you haven't fucked a greek humanoid in their hairy ass. The difference is that there is no difference and you are basically fucking hair. Need a fucking NMR to find the hole.
 

ManaJunkie

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classic-gentlemen-boxing-turn-based-rpg-because-it-would-be-a-damn-shame-to-move-away-from-such-well.jpg
 

fantadomat

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Fucking a guy is the same as fucking a girl only difference being youre fucking a mans hairy asshole instead of a womans tight pussy.
Clearly you haven't fucked a tight german girl in her hairy ass. The difference is that man have hair everywhere else....or more accurately they don't shave it.
Clearly you haven't fucked a greek humanoid in their hairy ass. The difference is that there is no difference and you are basically fucking hair. Need a fucking NMR to find the hole.
Nah,you just a powerful trust that will penetrate the blockade. Just shove it in and smoke your cigar. I personally don't mind hairy ones,it feel more like fucking a woman and not some retarded teen. Tho cut is the best for me,not shaved. Sadly this days everyone is shaving everything,can't get that stupid fanaticism about "hygiene".
 

Daedalos

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It's a funny thing with the different systems.

I mean, I vehemently hated rtwp for very long, but then I played Kingmaker, and was actually surprised of how well it could work. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's way better than something like poe 1+2 and even baldurs for me.

I still favor TB over RTWP, just because I like the tactical og strategic aspect of things, I like to plan, and I like to watch shit unfold in combat. RTWP can get real clusterfucky, even with constant pauses, you just don't feel the combat the same way. RTWP just doesn't feel as rewarding and as "good" as TB does.

TB feels more deterministic, because you planned your character so well, you made sure you had enough move and actions points to do this and that, you rely on your skills and feats.

Tb just feels alot less "gamey" and way less cheesey.

Obviously shitty TB implementation is never good. D:OS 2 suffered from this as a prime example.
They didn't even have a combat slider to speed up animations and combat, which is ESSENTIAL to TB combat.

TB can get REAL fucking tedious with trash combat, if you don't have mechanics to mitigate the slowness somehow.

As I said, things like slow turn-order, slow animations, dull UI, unintuitive and shoddy graphics can fuck it up, but that goes for any game.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
TB can get REAL fucking tedious with trash combat, if you don't have mechanics to mitigate the slowness somehow.

As I said, things like slow turn-order, slow animations, dull UI, unintuitive and shoddy graphics can fuck it up, but that goes for any game.

Yeah but the very same issue can plague RTwP, see NWN for example, that game is so tediously slow you pretty much have to run it with a speedhack to get any enjoyment out of it.
 
Vatnik
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In RTWP: oh that guy is peeking out at the end of the corridor, I can shoot at him when he does so

Why is anyone acknowledging this as being an even vaguely positive point for RTwP? In real life, if someone is advancing on you down a hallway while you are behind the corner and you both have ranged weapons; you have a massive fucking advantage against them.

You barely need to expose yourself to shoot at them and you have a reflex advantage when you do. It's called "peekers advantage", "cutting the pie", or just plain "being in fucking cover when that idiot isn't". If you, the guy whining about "muh reflex games" actually played a tactical shooter once in your life you would know that.

In RTwP, the person who should have advantage would step out, and like he says, the game would pause and both units would have the same time and chance to hit each other with the corner not being factored in at all; which is completely idiotic and unrealistic.

Therefore, in the strawman TBS system the outcome is far more realistic even if it doesn't look so. The unit peeking has significant advantage. In a proper system with overwatch or interrupts, they intentionally put a lowered chance to hit on overwatch shots and a significant amount of reflex skill is required to even make them, matching real life even more.
It's not a cover system, it's just a garbage ''not your turn'' system, that would still take effect even if the anti-peeker's weapon is some magical gaze attack with 100% accuracy. Nice cope though.
It's also not a strawman scenario, it's something I did when playing Fallout once and then realised how dumb it was.
 
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Vatnik
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TB can get REAL fucking tedious with trash combat, if you don't have mechanics to mitigate the slowness somehow.

As I said, things like slow turn-order, slow animations, dull UI, unintuitive and shoddy graphics can fuck it up, but that goes for any game.

Even TB that has very fast animations simply can't cope with too many units.

In Avernum 1 my party was quite weak in the lategame (partly because I didn't notice they had three Dread Curses on them), so I had to start spam summoning things to fight for me, and to eat the multi-target damage spells many enemies have. Some higher-level summons in the game can also summon more summons of their own, and the enemy likes to summon things, so you quite swiftly have dozens of summons on each side. Having to wait ten seconds every time the turn comes around for your eight lava bats to fire their missiles is something that just doesn't happen in RTWP. And it's a shame because these summon wars are a pleasant change of tactics from the rest of the game, but it's limited by TB.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Even TB that has very fast animations simply can't cope with too many units.
Nothing can cope with too many units. That's why it's too many. Nice try twisting the argument. Yes, a crap-ton of individual units is traditionally not suited for TB, apply for your medal at the desk please.
 

laclongquan

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Take Icewind Dale series, for example in tactic games.

Take Outer Yard of Orc Fortress (the area where we emerge from the underground up to the yard) for 1st example: with that numerous enemies in that small space, TB is a pure noGo.

Or hell, the inside area right after that too. A series of small rooms with huge number of enemies. With RTwP you can try stealthily activate all the groups, run back to entry to draw them all to you in one massive battle and go. With TB you just surrender~ Too many small battles in that.
 

infidel

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To take just one example of TB being clunky and shit: I have 6 movement points. I use 1 point to step in front of a corridor that branches off to one side, 4 to shoot the Super Mutant that is down that corridor, and the last point to step back out of range. He has no chance to retaliate because of the amazing tactical depth of TB games.

Your example is contrived in the sense that you describe a situation where the player is fast enough to do that. What if you only have 5 AP? You'll just leave yourself open for a return attack for a full turn. I'd say that generally TB starts to show its inherent limitations when everyone has lots of AP and that's what the crutches like Overwatch and other delayed action stuff are for. Same as P in RTwP is a crutch for easier party management.
 

Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Take Icewind Dale series, for example in tactic games.

Take Outer Yard of Orc Fortress (the area where we emerge from the underground up to the yard) for 1st example: with that numerous enemies in that small space, TB is a pure noGo.

Or hell, the inside area right after that too. A series of small rooms with huge number of enemies. With RTwP you can try stealthily activate all the groups, run back to entry to draw them all to you in one massive battle and go. With TB you just surrender~ Too many small battles in that.

So basically the point is that whenever the combat scenarios are closer to a strategy game meaning that you have to move, fight and control groups of units, real time is better because it makes things faster..
 

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