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Baldur's Gate Missing isn't fun or how I failed statistics at high school and blamed D&D for it.

Mr. Hiver

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This thread is officially retarded. I think Hiver's issue is that he doesn't understand fractions.
:hero::yeah:

Here comes another, just regurgitating the same broken delusional shit again.


With 10 sided die, the range of values is 1 through 10. All values are equally probable of being a result. This is different from setting a conditional outcome based on that roll. If 70%thc (7/10) success, then 7 of the 10 possible numbers will result in success. All numbers are equally likely to be rolled, but they have been divided into binary categories of hit or miss, which causes the outcome to skew proportionately.

:stupid::retarded: First off, as i just said... I KNOW. Im not disagreeing with any of it, really, you absolute cretins. But the very way that works IS the reason why it doesnt work in RPGs. And it doesnt even skew the results proportionally at all.
Look at the results i got. Majority is 60/40 and would be distorted even if i had 80 or 90 % thc... Just look at the actual numbers produced you fuck. Not what you imagine.

The problem with "oh its average" and "you just need to roll more" is obviously, in RPG games you dont have that much time playing with any single specific % because you improve and change your character skills all the time.
So you never get to those fantastical "averages". But even in minutiae gameplay you dont get any sort of expected reasonable reliability.

Because its all too abstracted into single fucking stupid calculation that is based on completely random numbers generator - that is completely unrelated to anything else in the game.


Seriously... are you all just completely broken? Is there a single poster who can actually read and understand what is said, without painting his own retard misunderstanding over it?
This thread can be used as a clinical study of how fucking low human minds can go under the pressure of cognitive dissonance, i.e. something that makes you feel bad - so your mind outright distorts what you read into moronic fantasies and delusions - that you can then easily argue against. Its like there is "switch to easy mode" awesome button in your heads, and every time you press it the explosion of stupid shit comes out.
Of course thats the usual level of posting here and on many other sites, but that doesnt make you look any less fucking stupid and deranged.

In fact, it makes most of you look like complete deranged imbeciles of epic proportions.

Its really hard to properly describe how fucking stupid and idiotic you all are.

You know what? You shouldn't ever worry or build an asteroid defense of any kind. Why bother? The probabilities of a hit are so very low.
 

Vrab

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I know, i know, you think THC represents all of that. And that is the bullshit i disagree with. It doesn't. It abstracts too much and distorts whats going on - and produces stupid results.
The character advancement must be represented in more detailed and deeper ways with several skills, perks and or traits that separately modify every one of there different features - instead of all of it being bungled down into single idiotic % to hit.

This is purely matter of individual game's design, but I don't see how your point is anything other than wanting the calculation needed to attain the final probability be more complex. It would still be a probability, it could still be expressed as %.

Also, most games have THC modified by a number of factors. For example armor class with everything included into it in the case of BG; target's melee defense, height difference, adjecent friendlies to the target, morale of attacker and target etc in the case of Battlebrothers. So your problem seems to be a matter of degree, since in principle things are already like that.
 

Mr. Hiver

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This is purely matter of individual game's design, but I don't see how your point is anything other than wanting the calculation needed to attain the final probability be more complex. It would still be a probability, it could still be expressed as %.
Only if you really want to make it that way. What if instead, there are several different separate calculations, which are also presented as separate in the game, not just as numbers but as actual character animations and various icons and parts of UI?
Im sure something more then that can be created with time too.


Also, most games have THC modified by a number of factors. For example armor class with everything included into it in the case of BG; target's melee defense, height difference, adjecent friendlies to the target, morale of attacker and target etc in the case of Battlebrothers. So your problem seems to be a matter of degree, since in principle things are already like that.

YES! EXACTLY.

Its not like i am proposing anything insane. Most of it is already included in different mechanics and features of most RPGs.
The problem is that all of it is reduced down into single THC... and thats what makes the abstraction become too far removed from the actual gameplay and the game world, and thats why it distorts the gameplay into various problematic effects which get mentioned from time to time, (only to run into "EEEeeeee its randoooommmm REEeee," replies), or even get some attempts to be solved through various simple band aids like grazes, - but it does not need to be that way.

There are other options available. If one just stops thinking about such abstraction of THC as the ONLY HOLY OPTION versus the opposite extreme of deterministic gameplay and player skills taking over.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
The reason it's boiled down to a single number is because it speeds up play at tabletop. Most people don't want to roll multiple dice just to see if an attack landed then after it lands roll more dice to determine damage reduction, modifiers, etc.,
this isn't necessary for CRPGs and it's bad design to blindly copy something without understanding why it exists as it does in the first place. There are tabletop RPGs with far more complex(but much slower -- at a table) combat that would offer better examples(a lot of BRP-based games for example, it's a shame how overlooked BRP is especially considering there are OGL reference documents available.) D&D is popular because it's easy to pickup and play, not because it's crunchy.
 

Mr. Hiver

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It is also used in games because reducing complexity means less time is spent on those features while many other features impose their own demands.
It is understandable and logical. Games are very complex things to make. That all stands.

But, none of it makes that feature the only proper one or correct in its effects.
 

Vrab

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What if instead, there are several different separate calculations, which are also presented as separate in the game, not just as numbers but as actual character animations and various icons and parts of UI?

But it could, and I'd say should, still be reduced to some final probability. If I get you right, say I swing at you with my 50% THC (which is possibly the product of complex combination many lower level factors, but for the sake of the example lets just go with that as basic factor). And you have 50% chance to parry it. You'd want these 2 factors to be presented separately, so in 50% cases I'll just miss you, and in the other 50% I will hit but then you'll get to have your 50% chance to parry. In the end I still got a 25% THC for that particular case. Why not just present it as 25% hit chance? So I'm mouseovering your char and getting the 25% displayed in order to make an informed decision. If it would show something else, say 50%, it would be misleading. If it wouldn't show probability it would either mean I would have to bother determining it manually in order to stay informed or if I CBA doing that to act blindly.

Can still have animations and sounds display various different outcomes due to behind the scenes reasons for hits and misses. And again, this already exists in example of BB. Not in BG granted, which had just the dumb swoosh sound of hitting empty air, but this is a matter of visual and audio fidelity. I'm totally in favour of bringing this up, I'm just not sure why not show the player the resultant THC, no matter how complex the process of coming to it would be.
 

ColonelTeacup

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"Missing isn't fun." , said the sweaty man seventh time in his career. He added grazes, so you would hit when you miss. But now the boss was dying too fast. "What do, what do???, Aha, let me just add to the HP of the boss! Problem solved! Jshven, yuo are a Genius!."

But then the reports came in, "The game is boring." "The mechanics are MMOlite". "I can't seem to finish the game."

"All fault of the low attention span of the gamers, they can't play tactical games where they have to focus on the enemy and right click. And learn to press a few buttons now and then. They don't appreciate my genius.", said Jschven sadly. "It's not like games were good in the good old days!" He posted that chart with the levels of grief again, thinking this was the anger phase. "They will grow out of it, soon they will learn to accept that this is the new shit." But they didn't and Jschven is now working for MacroHard. "Which other games need a remake? Aha! Maybe its time for doing that Darklands thing I have been talking about. Yes! Yes! If any game needs a historically accurate, socially aware update, its that flawed gem! Let me think, what I can get rid of, Witches, tick. Shrines and Saints? What the heck is that? Scrubbed. Skills? These many? Speak Common? Dohoho who wrote this??? I must create a psuedo-Latin-Gaelic-Germanic language in which to name everything. Let me throw some darts. And Religious Training? Who needs that??? Proud and loud atheist here! Gods are manufactured by men! If that don't blow their minds, nothing will. Let me paste it on my iMac. They are gonna love this!!"

They didn't miss him.
Grazing makes sense mechanically as it occurs in reality.
 

Mr. Hiver

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But it could, and I'd say should, still be reduced to some final probability. If I get you right, say I swing at you with my 50% THC (which is possibly the product of complex combination many lower level factors, but for the sake of the example lets just go with that as basic factor). And you have 50% chance to parry it. You'd want these 2 factors to be presented separately, so in 50% cases I'll just miss you, and in the other 50% I will hit but then you'll get to have your 50% chance to parry. In the end I still got a 25% THC for that particular case. Why not just present it as 25% hit chance? So I'm mouseovering your char and getting the 25% displayed in order to make an informed decision. If it would show something else, say 50%, it would be misleading. If it wouldn't show probability it would either mean I would have to bother determining it manually in order to stay informed or if I CBA doing that to act blindly.

Can still have animations and sounds display various different outcomes due to behind the scenes reasons for hits and misses. And again, this already exists in example of BB. Not in BG granted, which had just the dumb swoosh sound of hitting empty air, but this is a matter of visual and audio fidelity. I'm totally in favour of bringing this up, I'm just not sure why not show the player the resultant THC, no matter how complex the process of coming to it would be.

Yes it "could" all be reduced to a single number - only i would not do it.
Because the outcome is not a single calculation but a combination of different factors.
Reducing it to a single percentage effectively removes those combinations (even if some of those factors are taken into account) and that lack or removal shows in the gameplay and affects and distorts the gameplay in a specific negative ways.

This is how it would work,

You would have a specific THC made out of your skills with specific weapon and your attributes. Lets say its ranged weapon skill for these purposes.
You run into a combat scenario and have to fight. There is several enemies looting and pillaging a small village, whatever.

You aim at one closest to you, he is stationary and doesnt see you, as you mouse over the indicator for distance shows up - maybe just color coded to give you a general sense of distance and you see your THC adjust, grow higher or smaller depending on how close you can move. You sneak 10 meters closer - the distance indicator changes to indicate near distance and your THC which was ... 60% is now at 86%. Or higher.
You check an enemy further away - THC drops down to 55% or lower, to the 0% at the end of the weapon range.

You also see their own defense chance as a separate icon. Whatever that defense is. Dodging or armor rating, whatever.

You take a sneak attack, enemy didnt notice you - so he didnt defend in any way, so his defense was 0% and you drop him like a sack of potatoes.
Now others are alert and see you, they both started running for cover - thus they get the "moving target" icon even while in TB mode, which further lowers your THC while the distance they are at also contributes.
These are then much harder shots to make - which is naturally logical and expected.
Now you miss because of those factors coming into play. One of them even throws himself behind some cover so he actually avoids your shot. You shoot at him again, but because of the distance and the cover you miss.

But the other one takes a run at you wielding a machete.
And he manages to reach you and go into melee range. You see your THC rise to 100% because of the proximity.
You take a fast shot from the hip - but the enemy is still moving and his defense of avoidance is very high, you see its icon is at 90% and he dodges your shot, throws himself on the floor or beside you, whatever.
While you reload or try to take another shot he stabs you or slashes your arms, so you drop your weapon. Now he has 100% THC because he is so close, and you have only your dodging defense and armor to save you.
But both are low, he scores a crit and kills you.

There would be more to it, attacks of opportunity, reactions like in new DnD, targeted shots and other factors to consider, depending on the game design itself. Preferably the weather conditions would play their role too, as would elevation and other environmental specific details. But thats it in a nutshell.

You would see your own THC - changing and adjusting to specific conditions, and you would see the enemy defense "rating" or Chance to Avoid or whatever. And you would get a clear indication if you missed yourself or the enemy defended.

Same for any type of combat with any kind of weapon.
If it was a sword fight you would get your THC up to 100% in close proximity - but the enemy could dodge it anyway or defend, parry and riposte, counter attack and so on, while even if you score a hit his armor could reduce the damage. Same works for you in turn.

Its not any kind of drastic change, everything still works the same under the hood, most of these things are already present as mechanics in games - but the feel of the combat would be completely different then it is now.
And it would be better.
 
Last edited:

coldcrow

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Oh, you are arguing for a more realistic hit and damage system. Was hard to make out your point between all the bile.
 

Efe

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"You check an enemy further away - THC drops down to 55% or lower, to the 0% at the end of the weapon range."
why does it become %0 suddenly? IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. WHERE IZ MUH REALISM

also you proceeded to describe that xcom meme screenshot where a soldier literally holding a gun to aliens face had lower than %100 hit chance..
so the enemy is directly next to you and you have %100 chance to hit but you still miss %90 of time because he has high dodge?
HOW CAN IT BE %100 AND %10 at the same time!?!?!?! HURR!!


hes not arguing for anything hes just trying to earn some tags
 

Mr. Hiver

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Oh, you are arguing for a more realistic hit and damage system. Was hard to make out your point between all the bile.
No, it was hard to make out because you are all ridiculous imbeciles who didnt bother to read what im actually saying.
brain damaged morons

just like this one

"You check an enemy further away - THC drops down to 55% or lower, to the 0% at the end of the weapon range."
why does it become %0 suddenly? IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. WHERE IZ MUH REALISM

or

also you proceeded to describe that xcom meme screenshot where a soldier literally holding a gun to aliens face had lower than %100 hit chance..

See?

Complete and utter retardation under effects of enormous cretinous butthurt over delusions, absurd dumbfuck opinions and even dialogue he himself creates.
 

Mr. Hiver

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Its not "my own" caricature you shit faced imbecile. Its yours. You laughable cretinous deranged turd.
 
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With 10 sided die, the range of values is 1 through 10. All values are equally probable of being a result. This is different from setting a conditional outcome based on that roll. If 70%thc (7/10) success, then 7 of the 10 possible numbers will result in success. All numbers are equally likely to be rolled, but they have been divided into binary categories of hit or miss, which causes the outcome to skew proportionately.

First off, as i just said... I KNOW. Im not disagreeing with any of it, really, you absolute cretins. But the very way that works IS the reason why it doesnt work in RPGs. And it doesnt even skew the results proportionally at all.

You just contradicted yourself, immediately. I'll not argue with you if you're going to argue with yourself. The mathematics on this were solved >500 years ago. Refute them at your own peril. Also, perhaps you should have read my entire reply.

It sounds like you're just complaining about verisimilitude from relatively low granularity. All you have to do at that point you just have to change your range and introduce more dice. Instead of your MMA champion being 1d20+10, he's a 12d100, take the highest.

I literally addressed the exact thing point that you claim everyone is ignoring. It's literally the only part of my reply you didn't quote. There is nothing left to be said in this thread by myself or anyone. Enjoy howling at the moon.
 

Mr. Hiver

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I didnt contradict myself you utter cretin, And i explained why in the very next sentence you didnt quote, in order to maintain your absurd idiocy. The outcomes do not skew proportionally - and sometimes veer completely out of any proportion, because the random number generator is actually fucking random, and not really connected to anything in the game - you dumb shit for brains dumbfuck.

I literally addressed the exact thing point that you claim everyone is ignoring.
You wont find such a quote made by me, you absurd retarded imbecile.
Its just happening in your malfunctioning retarded butthurt addled mind. Which wont stop you from trying to argue your interpretation is more correct then what i am actually saying.

Because you are that fucking absurdly stupid.
 

Mr. Hiver

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giphy.gif
 

Egosphere

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In most of these i actually missed four times out of ten. Which is NOT 70%.
And thats where the "EEEEee its raaaandommmm!!" dumbfuckery gets in. Because IF its all still random - and IF i can get a score of all ten attempts over 70 because that has the same probability of happening as any other score as geniuses tell me... so i can even get ten one hundred scores in a row - because "EEEeee its raaaandommmm!" - then the 70% chance to hit means SHIT. Or 80%, or 90%.

It's a random variable. 35% that you'll miss 4 times or more in 10 attempts. Only a 26% that you get exactly 7 hits in 10 attempts.
 

FeelTheRads

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Hiver can't into basic math.

"I missed more than the statistics say because it's totally random therefore statistics are wrong."
"Also if I hit 10 times in a row it means that 70% hit chance is wrong I should hit exactly 7 times out 10 every time. In fact every arbitrary number I choose, I should hit exactly 70% out of that."

Simpleton brain.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Mr. Hiver

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Yo, here goes another retard who just cant do without idiot dumbfuck strawmans and he calls that simpleton brain. haha. Rads youre on a roll lately.

It's a random variable. 35% that you'll miss 4 times or more in 10 attempts. Only a 26% that you get exactly 7 hits in 10 attempts.
Yes... aaand?
 

zapotec

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But why the partial hit mechanic is deprecated? It's also implemented in many table RPG like Talislanta, Pendragon, Moongose Runequest etc etc...
 

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