What's the best way to do equipment progression in RPGs?

[Absinthe]

I don't like Arcanum's crafting system. I feel like crafting by nature has to allow you to customize your gear, otherwise it's just DIY fetchquest. Also, Arcanum has two methods to enable crafting: One is investing skill points into crafting (the obvious method, also the expensive method) and one is picking up tons of schematics and using manuals with intelligence potions for expertise (zero skill investment needed). The latter feels fucking dumb to be honest, and yet it's possible to craft tons of shit this way and it's usually a reason to avoid investing too much into crafting skills.

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't like Arcanum's crafting system. I feel like crafting by nature has to allow you to customize your gear

Which it does through unique gear.

picking up tons of schematics and using manuals with intelligence potions

This is more like an exploit and it also doesn't allow you to get nearly as much gear investing points does because it is dependant on series of items crafted before with the skill.

Arcanum crafting is the fun and the most rewarding crafting system ever made in RPGs.

 

[Absinthe]

Which it does through unique gear.

Unique gear is a good touch, but customization means customization. It means you should be able to affect the stats and properties of the items you create rather than just doing recipe crafting.

This is more like an exploit and it also doesn't allow you to get nearly as much gear investing points does because it is dependant on series of items crafted before with the skill.

It's not an exploit. It's deliberately designed to work. It's just cheesy and broken, like most of Arcanum.

Arcanum crafting is the fun and the most rewarding crafting system ever made in RPGs.

Just what are you comparing Arcanum to there? Because I feel like you've set a low bar.

Arcanum allows you to make interesting items, but as a crafting system it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Shadenuat]

The result is the same - equipment which fits your character concept.

 

[Beastro]

For me it's a mix of replaceable equipment with unique stuff. I guess you could say the unique side wins over, as the replaceable stuff should also have some generic affinities: Spears having longer range, but penalties indoors, some being middle of the road that work in all areas, etc. The main thing is with the uniquely unique stuff it should have a good amount of stuff that can change how you play the game.

Good exmaples of that were in EQ where a Manastone could very much change how you played as a wizard or cleric, while getting the cleric epic with the clickie, no mana required res was an absolute requirement for the class in a way no other class' epic was.

I'll also add that, while technically in the "replaceable" category, TES' approch doesn't ring true as that in my mind. The point with it I mean is how generic the items are in a way no other game's gear has every really been like it to me because they're all built upon templates to degree most aren't. It's one thing to have generic iron and steel items and even some kind special stuff like mithril, but once you get into having everything be generic, well, TES had a bland "level scaling" kind of approach to gear from the get go. Once you get into Dwemer and Daedra you think you're getting into some special territory when you're not.

It doesn't help either how the enchantment system works adding one or two stats to an item rather than a good list of things to really effect how it impacts you. It isn't helped either by the fact that uniques are just various armour or weapon types with some added stats, maybe a different graphic if you're lucky. All of it leaves something of a hole in the progression of the games, even MW and DF as you know in a Dwemer ruin you're gonna find Dwemer gear and all of it will be the same, for instance.

The funny thing is I don't know how much of that is mechanics and how much of it is the way Bethesda does gear. I know many other games have fundamentally the same tiers of armour, and yet, they don't give off that same bland, generic vibe beyond what you expect from common, base armour and weapons you scrounge up starting off.

 

[Absinthe]

The result is the same - equipment which fits your character concept.

Nope. It's not just about the end result. In my opinion, it isn't truly crafting if you don't have options to customize your creations to better suit your designs. It's not about whether or not you have a convenient armorset for your preferred character concept. It's about whether you can exercise discretion and control over the process of manufacture. And preferably also whether you can exercise a measure of creativity with the process of creation. That's a key part of what makes it so that you the player are truly crafting imo.

 

[Shadenuat]

Sounds like a chore.

 

[Absinthe]

Having options is a chore to you?

 

[Edija]

You know what game had the best equipment progression? Gothic 2. I'm saying 2 because 1 locks you out of 2handed weapons for way too long.

What is the premise that makes it so good and so different from the Diablo 2 inspired item bloat of the Autist? Well, firstly, the game teases you with armor. Who hasn't thought: "wow, this is cool armor" once you've entered the city and Lothar starts talking to you. Also, equipment, especially armor is a reward for: a) story progression, b) monetary progression and c) guild progression. The armor acts as identification as well, strengthening the whole RP in RPG. I always found the combination of working for your equipment and clearly belonging to a recognized group great. These are very unique options that have much more character than: oh, a gorillion drops of green, blue, yellow, red items that you have to sort through. If the point of a role playing game is role playing, then Gothic found the perfect pace and system to enforce it. The case could be made for weapons as well. Remember the whole Magic ore blade thing? How you consecrate it, and then find a way to make it even stronger by the end game. How the Paladin endgame armor is tied to a quest in the Monastery that you might as well miss. These are such great things that have not been repeated since, they were even toned down or almost taken out with the rep system introduced in Gothic 3.

I think Morrowind did well for a more open RPG, the items weren't so abundant that they start to annoy you. I always get frustrated by ARPG style looting systems where you get a full inventory of magic crap five minutes after you step into the wilderness, it kinda defeats the purpose of unique and magical equipment. There are some games that pull it off without being annoying, Diablo 2 for one wasn't so overwhelming, Divine Divinity was clearly inspired by it but had enough unique items that you had to work for to feel special (Slasher, ect.). The thing I can't take is, for example, Grim Dawn. The game throws so many items at you that I wish I was a daltonist, it really makes no sense in any regard except satisfying those slot machine ARPG addicts that get off from every kill because it could be THAT (right colored) drop.

 

[koyota]

4) Unique items

Necroing this because it is a more detailed discussion of what people are complaining about in the annoying design choice threads

Disco Elysium is a good recent example of 4. everything being Unique with it‘s own advantages and disadvantages.

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Pacing of equipment is also a separate axis for measuring this.

Even Ignoring Loot games,
Something like a Wasteland 2 where you get new gear almost every area and it is 50-100% stronger.
Forcing you to constantly use new gear

VS a Low-Level DnD style game where the entire game you might find only 2-3 more powerful weapons than
your starting gear and it is still quite possible to finish the game with the +1 longsword you had close to the start of the game.

 

[wishbonetail]

Homm/Kings bounty itemization can offer oneself years and years of enjoyment while not being a grindy mmo.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

morrowind's: everything available since the beginning, full loot, powerful stuff actually powerful, enchanting is endgame.
i'd only like to add a single difference: death managed as in mount&blade/a mod for skyrim where instead of dying you're moved somewhere else (like rescued, robbed, captured etc) with a chance of losing equipment. no unreplaceable or extremely rare stuff (i'm looking at you, prophesy of pendor), that forces savescumming.

 

[anvi]

Good exmaples of that were in EQ where a Manastone could very much change how you played as a wizard or cleric

Come back Beast, tell the folks at home about the Manastone.

 

[Fluent]

Hey all. I have no clue what the best way is (I reckon that is different for everybody and based on what appeals to them), but a couple recent favorites of itemization for me are Icewind Dale: EE and Swords & Sorcery: Underworld - Definitive Edition. What I love about IWD is all the gear slots and tons of unique items with sort of simple, meaningful and creative properties (and the lore too, nice!) In S&S I really enjoyed the itemization because it was very down to Earth. You may be playing 10 hours and then find a single Apprentice's Robe for one of your casters, and it would be a meaningful upgrade. You sort of found mostly one-off items where only one of them exists and so on. Not necessarily legendary items either, but like a single Great Axe, or Warhammer. Since it was more grounded these seemingly simple items were actually significant upgrades and didn't come around often (if at all.) Both games of course utilize handplaced loot with some random properties but mostly handplaced.

Sorry for the ranting, but those 2 RPGs have stuck in my mind lately on itemization systems I've enjoyed. Ciao guys!

 

[Palomides]

Shut up.