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Eternity Did the PoE series fail commercially because it didn't use the D&D ruleset or was it something else?

Butter

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I doubt avoiding the D&D rules hurt the game very much. The problem was that their own rules kind of sucked, and there was no reason they had to. Might affecting all attack damage (including crossbows and spells) was done purely for the sake of B A L A N C E, and Sawyer (in his own words) made attributes not matter very much, so that there could be no bad builds. Hey, congrats you autistic fuck. You made character creation a pointless waste of time.
 

PsychoFox

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Yeah i'm not at all convinced those numbers are accurate. This is just conjecture at best. I suspect the real numbers are much higher than this, if anything, considering the post-launch support the game got, which is always a sign of healthy ROI.

I'm not saying the game did or did not do poorly because i don't have actual data, but i don't think it's as bad as what people say it is. I'm willing to bet that the ROI on Deadfire was much better than PoE1, but that's mostly my hunch.
The spreadsheet provided here lists Deadfire as having sold 203,867 copies as of 1 July 2018.
So the game sold 200k in a little less than two months. I do not know how that compares with the first game, thought i assume the PoE 1 sold more in that period. Still, I would like to know the numbers for other platforms, as well as an overall sum total units sold + total revenue vs cost analysis to determine if the game is a financial success or not. Without that sort of granular information, we can't make blanket statements about how well (or poorly) the game performed.

A the end of the day, the most important thing is ROI, and not just immediate ROI but long-term as well. I highly doubt we'll ever know the real numbers though.
 
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I doubt avoiding the D&D rules hurt the game very much.
Anyone who thinks it sold poorly based on what ruleset it used(or didn't use) is insane.

The reason for poor sales is probably a lot more obvious. When the most common complaint on a forum like this is that it's too wordy, how do you think the average normie will respond to it?
 

vortex

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At least, they looked at criticism of first game and tried to get things right. Diagnose for Deadfire was less negative, namely the story, pacing and ship-ship combat had low points. But, they are important heavy points.

It's interesting to see how Obsidian goes from there. Now they're big as Larian so they can make a grand game like D:OS III.
 
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Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
A the end of the day, the most important thing is ROI, and not just immediate ROI but long-term as well. I highly doubt we'll ever know the real numbers though.

Dude, they sold revenue shares in the game to third-party investors! Those revenue numbers above were from Obsidian in their own SEC filing. Unless you think Feargus is committing securities fraud, we have a very good understanding of how much money Deadfire made. Much, much better numbers than we get for most games.

Obsidian now needs to make regular dividend payments to people who own revenue shares (IIRC every six months). That covers every platform. And the dividends have been awful. Either Deadfire was a flop or Feargus is a criminal—it’s really that simple.

We also know from interviews that they spent more on Deadfire than POE. They expected it to sell better. But even by the most generous set of assumptions, it’s sold worse than Tyranny, which was not considered a commercial success by anyone.
 

Raghar

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RPG ruleset typically tries to simulate real world. Hit from sword hurts. Drinking potion takes some seconds. Armor stops cuts and most blows. Casting fireball means most stuff would be burned down including building with caster and these who wanted to kill him.

(In certain anime there is a scene where certain person casted fireball against villain, villain dodged and then started to strangle caster girl with words: Who the fuck is villain? The fireball destroyed tower of nearby castle. A prince who owned the caste ran out and was screaming: You overdid it, you'd fucking get it. They stopped with strangling, and both girls ran away before they would get it.) This scene would be impossible in PoE, because there is at most grazing, and there are not crazy characters.


PoE seen games where there are some stats, they designed game, not a simulation. And well, these stats sucked and system didn't work at all.
 
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I doubt avoiding the D&D rules hurt the game very much.
Anyone who thinks it sold poorly based on what ruleset it used(or didn't use) is insane.

The reason for poor sales is probably a lot more obvious. When the most common complaint on a forum like this is that it's too wordy, how do you think the average normie will respond to it?
you miss the point. Its not necessarily that some 'normie' is looking at the game rules when buying a RPG (although D&D is very popular right now, and it can't but help against the muscle wizard creation kit), its how much work and effort was spent trying to balance and make these unknown rules work? Was this a good use of time and effort? They had pen and paper games with the rules for days and days is my understand to try and understand them. Why? This was not some small effort.

Josh made some linear games using AD&D that used the same type of combat and did not have great story telling or choices and consequences. The games played on rails and were quite linear. People still play them today and love them and remakes of the games have spawned entire other studios in fact. Was this because icewind dale had great story telling and choices? Josh seemed to be able to make this type of game previously just fine when using other rule sets.
 

Cryomancer

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I doubt avoiding the D&D rules hurt the game very much. The problem was that their own rules kind of sucked, and there was no reason they had to. Might affecting all attack damage (including crossbows and spells) was done purely for the sake of B A L A N C E, and Sawyer (in his own words) made attributes not matter very much, so that there could be no bad builds. Hey, congrats you autistic fuck. You made character creation a pointless waste of time.

Not only that, but the character creation goes AGAINST the lore of their own universe. For example, an low int WIZ, when their own rule establish that wizard spells are complex. IMO PoE 1/2 is far weaker than NWN2, in everything. In story, on amount of spells, on itemization, on attributes, on amount of classes, on lore, on fortress management(...)

The masters of academic magic, wizards are students of arcane traditions that stretch back beyond the boundaries of recorded history. Wizards are a highly organized group, often forming academies or guilds devoted to research and development in magical studies, and tend to favor environments where inquiry, experimentation, debate, and the dissemination of knowledge are encouraged. Many accomplished wizards eventually become known for their eccentricity, their egos, and their unquenchable interest in all things arcane and occult." source > https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Wizard

They expected it to sell better. But even by the most generous set of assumptions, it’s sold worse than Tyranny, which was not considered a commercial success by anyone.

Yes, i agree. About tyranny, i din't liked because despite the amazing story, the game have an poor long repetitive combat, where you never miss, but enemies needs to be impaled 50 times in the head to die and spells has cooldowns. The story is so amazing that maybe worth ignore this problems but i have better games to play at moment. I din't finished IWD2 yet.
 

Infinitron

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But even by the most generous set of assumptions, it’s sold worse than Tyranny, which was not considered a commercial success by anyone.

Tyranny had a lower all-time peak of players on release than Deadfire (15k vs 22k).

Has it sold more copies than Deadfire now, having been released in November 2016, been on sale a bunch of times and had its base price permanently reduced? Probably, but that's no contest.
 

Lacrymas

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When the most common complaint on a forum like this is that it's too wordy
This is not what we are saying, at least not what I am saying. Phrased like that makes it look like it's frivolous and done on a whim. What I am trying to explain is that the writing (which includes the zones we visit, their design and aesthetic, and the order we visit them in) fails to provide a good backdrop for our activities and doesn't motivate us to continue. I recently fired up Realms of Arkania because it has a German version and the intro was basically "a great warrior of the city was felled by orcs who are gathering outside the city to siege and plunder!" and I was like "YEAH! LET'S GO KILL SOME ORC SCUM!" because the presentation was charming and they did a good job of introducing the threat. PoE doesn't present anything interestingly or viscerally, it's stale, the exploration is 95% of the time disappointing and you simply don't care about this world and its silly problems.

The criticism is definitely not simply "it's too wordy".

Whether normies get the combat system or not is a different matter. Since we've experienced a bunch of combat systems and basically internalized D&D we can understand how it's different and what Josh was going for. Normies don't get this luxury and it feels like PoE's system is only possible on D&D's background and is made in direct response to D&D. This is not bad, this is how other art forms work, but like other art forms, you need the context to be able to fully grasp what is in front of you. And yeah, normies don't have this and if they don't get it or don't like it is not really surprising.
 

vortex

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I think someone needs to make therapeutic thread or Pillars Psycho E-Call about people with poe1 and poe2 RPG-disorder.

Did poe1 let you down ? Did you lost RPG hope after poe2 ?
Do you write endless posts about pillars while feeling depressed with Deadfire and continuously discussing the sales ? Do you feel this state of mind won't have an end and closure?



If your answers are YES than let us give you support with blessings of sawyer.
 

PsychoFox

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A the end of the day, the most important thing is ROI, and not just immediate ROI but long-term as well. I highly doubt we'll ever know the real numbers though.

Dude, they sold revenue shares in the game to third-party investors! Those revenue numbers above were from Obsidian in their own SEC filing. Unless you think Feargus is committing securities fraud, we have a very good understanding of how much money Deadfire made. Much, much better numbers than we get for most games.

Obsidian now needs to make regular dividend payments to people who own revenue shares (IIRC every six months). That covers every platform. And the dividends have been awful. Either Deadfire was a flop or Feargus is a criminal—it’s really that simple.

We also know from interviews that they spent more on Deadfire than POE. They expected it to sell better. But even by the most generous set of assumptions, it’s sold worse than Tyranny, which was not considered a commercial success by anyone.

Yes you are right, but those numbers (unless i understood them wrong) are from the early days of the game coming out (September, 2018 being the latest). Where is the updated figure? Also, what are the specifics of the Fig contract? (You says all platform sales must pay back the investors, but there could be myriad specifics). These are all important questions. I honestly don't think "we have a good idea". We've just seen one or two screenshots and old numbers (without real citation mind you) and are making conclusions based on that. I have no care in the world whether this game has sold poorly or has sold well actually. I was just wondering. All i'm saying is that personally i'm not convinced, and i'd like to see 1) Total number of units sold across all platforms and 2) Total revenue generated by the game through it's lifetime and 3) Cost - Return = X equation solved.

Otherwise, i have no interest in speculations etc.
 

PsychoFox

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Anyhow, if anything did cause the franchise to fail (which again, i don't think is the case), is how dispassionate some of the people involved in the project (including JESawyer) are about their work on the projects at Obsidian. Oh and probably bad management. Urqhart just sounds like poison.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Feargus Urquart: "Hey guys: our fans that have been with us for 20 years are throwing millions of pounds at us to do an IE style game - what should our priorities be?".
Josh Sawyer: "Let's make an entirely brand new untested ruleset. From scratch".
Feargus: "Good one Josh, you take care of that - I'm sure you can whip something up in no time".
MCA: "Let's try and prioritize the best of the narrative from Fallout, BG, PST, Arcanum and the party mechanics of KOTOR".
Feargus: "Great idea Chris! Now you take a back seat and let all the low-pay, just left college, wet behind the ears, no talent, new hires working for monthly rent money go ahead with that".
Tim Cain: "I'd like to get involved in...".
Feargus: "Ok, that was a great meeting team! I have another meeting to go to with the wife and kids err, I mean higher-ups; so let me know how it's going in 6 months! toodledo!".

i think the game is probably better off without an even greater focus on the world's most boring and wordy rpg companion ever, grieving mother

Don't know tbh, the game was already so boring and wordy that I never got that far.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Darth Canoli

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They both released broken games (PK and PoE2) and suffered the consequences, it shows if you don't know what you're doing and if you can't release a bugless game one month after release with an optimized engine, you'll loose the public's goodwill and that's exactly how it should be.

Of course, PoE bland characteristics system makes it worse.

Still, here's the moral of the story :
  1. Don't use unity for your games.
  2. Fix your bugs during the beta you goatfuckers.
  3. Optimize your engine.
  4. If you don't have the talent to get Wizardry level of modified rules, just don't touch anything.
 
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