Creating immersive NPCs: Piranha Bytes vs CD Projekt RED vs Bethesda Softworks

[Sigourn]

Please read this first because if you go on and vote without reading, you will wonder "why the fuck are there three different options for the same companies?".

I've had this discussion on other sites before. Which franchise has the most believable NPCs?

• Is it the Gothic series, where many generic NPCs are to be found?
  
• Is it The Elder Scrolls series, where every single NPC (barring enemies) is unique?

This question feels loaded when so little information is given. Those of us who have played at least one game in each franchise (preferrably Skyrim in Bethesda's case, more on that in a second) have already made up our minds for one or the other. For those who have yet to play these games, here is a basic rundown of each franchise.

GOTHIC

• Towns are considerably populated.
• Many generic NPCs dot these towns. These are virtually indistinguishable from each other.
• Those that are "less generic" are usually distinguished by their animation or something concrete they are doing in-game.
  
• All other NPCs are unique with names, personalities, and offer quests and other services. At the very least, they are the closest to a real life person you will find in-game.
• All NPCs, even generic ones with no name or unique voices, have schedules, as basic as they may be.

THE WITCHER

• Towns are densely populated.
• Many, many generic NPCs dot these towns. These are indistinguishable from each other.
• Those that are "less generic" are usually distinguished by their animation or something concrete they are doing in-game.
  
• All other NPCs are unique with names, personalities, and offer quests and other services. At the very least, they are the closest to a real life person you will find in-game.
• Only unique NPCs have schedules.

SKYRIM

• Towns and cities are sparsely populated.
• Every NPC to be found here, minus guards, is unique. They are perfectly distinguishable from each other, with their own names, personalities, dialogue lines. They all have their own schedules, as basic as they may be.
• Certain characters (bartenders, smiths, traders) repeat the same lines, word by word.

Note that I have ommited other information (NPCs in Gothic react to you drawing a weapon, for instance) because it has nothing to do with the compromise that is made between one approach and the other. I've ommited personal judgements as well because I don't want to influence anyone else, I simply want people to talk about their opinion.

My personal opinion: I can't decide between Gothic and The Witcher.

 

[Wunderbar]

It's not even a contest, Piranha Bytes all the way.

 

[DalekFlay]

I voted Witcher. More population is better, and not talking to all of them about their entire life history is both more realistic and offers better time/interesting content balance. The PB approach seems better on the surface, but a lot of times those games feel cluttered with people who don't actually matter but seem like they matter. I like Witcher 3's approach, where in Novigrad the city is busting at the seams with people but you know exactly which ones to bother with, and when you bother with them they're well developed and interesting for the most part.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Judging a company by a game they made 17 years ago is bullshit, might as well judge Bethesda by Daggerfall and Morrowind.

It's not even a contest, Piranha Bytes all the way.

I can't think of a single memorable NPC from any of the Risen games nor ELEX. Not one. And I just played the Risen games a couple months ago.

 

[Background Character]

Witcher went to shit with 2, 3 sucked even more and Cyberpunk will suck too

 

[Sigourn]

I voted Witcher. More population is better, and not talking to all of them about their entire life history is both more realistic and offers better time/interesting content balance.

This is exactly my opinion. The only reason I hesitated was because I remembered Gothic's NPCs had schedules... but then again, The Witcher doesn't need schedules when NPCs are constantly moving around.

Judging a company by a game they made 17 years ago is bullshit, might as well judge Bethesda by Daggerfall and Morrowind.

I wanted to use three specific examples because they are three different approaches that many people love for different reasons.

 

[Wunderbar]

I can't think of a single memorable NPC from any of the Risen games nor ELEX. Not one. And I just played the Risen games a couple months ago.

immersive != memorable.

 

[sullynathan]

Immersive NPCs that allow you to enter their house and rob them blind.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

From these companies i've only played Oblivion,Skyrim and Fallout 3 so i'll vote for Bethesda

 

[Agame]

ELEX

NASTY

 

[Q]

Risen and ELEX are not as good as Gothics, but NPC shedules and property awareness are still the best.
You can also try Kingdom Come: Deliverence

 

[Wunderbar]

KCD immersion suffers from reputation system and constant "Henry's come to see us".

 

[ERYFKRAD]

constant "Henry's come to see us".

Don't go to see them then.

 

[Zer0wing]

Nameless NPCs do have to have some simple schedule, even if not always executing it outside of players view (just moving from A to B). Just for the wow factor, like those pedestrians in Shenmue II you can stalk.
Gamebryo Scrolls goes too far beyond retarded with complex AI packets attached to every single NPC (all of this running on one CPU thread), and there's too much work for creating each distinct statist by hand in TES.

 

[Bibbimbop]

I know that you can make towns in Gothic desolate corpse-filled ghost-towns, but not sure about the others. If you can't genocide a town, it's not worth playing.

 

[Curratum]

Why is Piranha bytes even in the poll?

 

[Agame]

Gamebryo Scrolls goes too far beyond retarded with complex AI packets attached to every single NPC (all of this running on one CPU thread), and there's too much work for creating each distinct statist by hand in TES.

I thought "Radiant AI" was a myth/meme... Are you telling me its actually functional in Bethesduh games?

 

[Wunderbar]

Gamebryo Scrolls goes too far beyond retarded with complex AI packets attached to every single NPC (all of this running on one CPU thread), and there's too much work for creating each distinct statist by hand in TES.

I thought "Radiant AI" was a myth/meme... Are you telling me its actually functional in Bethesduh games?

it is semi-functional since Oblivion.

 

[Mud']

Kinda hard to say really, all of them are good in some aspects.

However, Enderal showed me how good a Bethesda game can be with that kind of stuff, you see random NPCs going to church, to the bar and "striking up" conversations with other random NPCs (citizens) and doing their work, go sleep in some place and by morning they come back at it and how you can stalk random NPCs.

But you can also do this in Gothic 2 and since Enderal is a mod, i guess my vote goes to PB, i loved The Witcher 1,2 and 3, 1 and 3 especially in the cities because they felt very alive even if the NPCs were all cookiecutter but that is the only way to go about it if you have cities that big.

Also where the hell is Ultima VII? I mean holy fuck that game had the most immersive NPCs in any game, i never seen other game where the Baker actually baked fucking bread in front of you or waitress with actual food, that shit blew my mind when i played it and i played it like 6 years ago.

 

[sullynathan]

Why is Piranha bytes even in the poll?

They pretty much make the best open world action rpgs minus the jank

 

[Funposter]

Gamebryo Scrolls goes too far beyond retarded with complex AI packets attached to every single NPC (all of this running on one CPU thread), and there's too much work for creating each distinct statist by hand in TES.

I thought "Radiant AI" was a myth/meme... Are you telling me its actually functional in Bethesduh games?

it is semi-functional since Oblivion.

It's arguably less fleshed-out since Oblivion, since fewer NPCs have day-specific activities. NPCs in Oblivion would attend the local chapel on Sundays, you had NPCs with neat features (there's a guy in Anvil who cheats on his wife, so he goes to the inn with a different woman once a week), and a lot of this was lost in the transition to Skyrim. I think the Immersive Citizens - AI Overhaul mod restores some of these features, but the mod author is an insane weirdo, and it's maybe 10% complete after five years or whatever.

The answer to which approach is best is probably The Witcher 3, but there's an argument to be made for an approach somewhere in-between it and Gothic. A competent developer could probably schedule the same amount of unique NPCs that are present in Skyrim, while still featuring a generic NPC population that is ten times as large.

 

[toro]

It's not even a contest, Piranha Bytes all the way.

I can't think of a single memorable NPC from any of the Risen games nor ELEX. Not one. And I just played the Risen games a couple months ago.

Xardas, Diego, Gomez

... and I forgot the name of the fire mage (edit: Milten)

 

[Hobo Elf]

I remember pretty much every NPC by name, voice, where they are and what their purpose is in Gothic 1 & 2. There's a very limited amount of NPCs that serve merely as props, which I greatly appreciate. The whole "less is more" philosophy in general is what sets G1 & 2 apart from many other games as the undisputed champion of game design.

 

[Jimmious]

I played a bit of ELEX and if people think that the NPCs in this game are "immersive" we see immersion very differently.
To me they looked like caricatures of people most of the time.

Witcher 3 did it best

 

[RaptorRex888]

Witcher 1 did it best, if I don't hear some random emaciated looking man saying "your mother sucks dwarf cock" every time I run past him the world is not believable.