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Eternity Did the PoE series fail commercially because it didn't use the D&D ruleset or was it something else?

Cryomancer

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Don't forget that Tyranny came out in between and was blatantly unfinished, which probably didn't help

Tyranny had level scaling of sorts, of broken sorts in fact. That made it trash in my book.

Level scaling, cooldown, combat where you never miss, but needs to hit 50 times to kill an enemy <<<insert more 5000 modern BS>>> And the fact that you fight almost only humans killed the game for me. I really tried. The story is amazing, but if i need to play with this mechanics, i rather not play...
 

AwesomeButton

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Btw , as far as the topic title goes, I am under the impression that the first PoE did not fail at all commercially - on the contrary it generated a considerable amount of money for Obsidian.
PoE2 failed in comparison, only because they them selves set the bar too high
The data from the two games is pretty clear: PoE attracted a good amount of periphery interest, in addition to the hardcore grognard elements, but most of this periphery didn't return for the sequel. Deadfire may have brought profits but it sold way below expectations, as evidenced clearly by Josh's last talk.
 
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It was a very good theme, they just didn't know how to use it properly, but people were already scared away by PoE1 anyway.

This is correct.

It felt a bit "off" to me, following a typical fantasy setting

They mishandled it, as above. Perhaps they should have gone a bit less tropical, and the mix-match of Polynesian and Malaysian influences certainly gave it a strange vibe.
 

Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Btw , as far as the topic title goes, I am under the impression that the first PoE did not fail at all commercially - on the contrary it generated a considerable amount of money for Obsidian.
PoE2 failed in comparison, only because they them selves set the bar too high
The data from the two games is pretty clear: PoE attracted a good amount of periphery interest, in addition to the hardcore grognard elements, but most of this periphery didn't return for the sequel. Deadfire may have brought profits but it sold way below expectations, as evidenced clearly by Josh's last talk.
Exactly and my point is that they had too high expectations because they didn't evaluate the market correctly.
They churned out too many games and expansions in a short time which burned people out and along with other decisions (for example not making PoE2 a high level adventure that continues after PoE instead of a basically new game... or all the changes in the char system) they reduced their potential crowd quite a bit.
 

Jeru

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or they just had no interest in playing a weird island tribal themed RPG
I really doubt that thought process of potential customers went like : "I really liked PoE1 and had lots of fun playing it but PoE2 is on islands and ships so I am not buying".
 
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or they just had no interest in playing a weird island tribal themed RPG
I really doubt that thought process of potential customers went like : "I really liked PoE1 and had lots of fun playing it but PoE2 is on islands and ships so I am not buying".
Yeah, they were totally thinking "I really liked this game, so I'm going to buy a game that's radically different from it"

This is one of the highest ranked 'most helpful' negative Deadfire reviews on Steam:
https://steamcommunity.com/id/kroopnik/recommended/560130/
- The pirate theme. Well I'm not a fan of pirates, but the main issue here is that it feels so disconnected from the previous game. The first PoE was grim, cold, grounded, celtic (for lack of a better word), mysterious, eerie. The second PoE feels cheesy, incoherent, clumsy, literal and overly inclusive (of ideas mind you, but the modern politics are there as well, and boy they didn't even try to conceal it).
 

Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yup. A lot of people think of generic fantasy when thinking about BG-like games.
Forests , dungeons, orcs, wizards and stuff. Traverse the land and fight shit.
This departure to piracy, ships and weird Polynesian accents and what have you, certainly did not "click" with that crowd.
 

smaug

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My dad loved the first POE game, however, he hated being a pirate and the pirate theme for the second one.

So, yea that pirate theme was definitely an issue.
 

Eisenheinrich

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Yup. A lot of people think of generic fantasy when thinking about BG-like games.
Forests , dungeons, orcs, wizards and stuff. Traverse the land and fight shit.
This departure to piracy, ships and weird Polynesian accents and what have you, certainly did not "click" with that crowd.

Which is a shame, cause Deadfire's setting is much more interesting overall.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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There were tons of issues I'm sure, but the fact that POE was honest to god bad game will always be number one and no amount of citing sales numbers and steam reviews will change that. This game seemed custom made for the large part of codex population who think iso crpgs from late nineties are truest crpgs of them all, released when the board was still largely obsidian fanboy central and aside from a few usual suspects the people here fucking hated it. You don't have to be a rocket science genius to figure out what the opinion of an average guy who bought it because "hey, this gaem is trending on social media and is oldschool rocket grenade im totally oldschool gaymer and imma play dis gonna b gud hurrrr" was.

Instead of looking at places with their actual core audience like tier two codex to see what happened, obisidian looked at the sales numbers and reviews, saw mainstream potential and thought that if they streamline and add pointless shit like all the voiced postenagos they will have an ultimate slam dunk to rival dungeon siege 3. Coupled with all the issues that were already there, this approach blew up in their faces. Ac, this is very surprising and I'm looking forward to next 10 threads of bazzos discussing why it happened.
 

Lawntoilet

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Yup. A lot of people think of generic fantasy when thinking about BG-like games.
Forests , dungeons, orcs, wizards and stuff. Traverse the land and fight shit.
This departure to piracy, ships and weird Polynesian accents and what have you, certainly did not "click" with that crowd.

Which is a shame, cause Deadfire's setting is much more interesting overall.
I agree, I thought Deadfire was a much better game (though I still haven't beaten it because the main plot is boring). I am admittedly a sucker for pirate games though.
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This didn't really bother me (although there were too many "Ekera"s) because it reminded me of Nostromo. I kinda doubt that Obsidian was going for a Conrad vibe though so maybe it was just me.
 

glass blackbird

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Yeah, I think all these other considerations matter a lot less than the fact PoE1 just really really sucked.
 

Ramnozack

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The polynesian island setting should have been good, but like everything Califags make these days, it was filled with cutesy bullshit, a lot of shit humor especially at inappropriate times, modern identity politics, shitty writing, and overall just Joss Whedon esque shit.
 

Piotrovitz

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You know how you have different kinds of spells from summoning, divination, necromancy, etc in the old IE games? The cool different high level spells that gives you a sense of fulfillment at how powerful your character has become since you were level 1? And how you can customize your wizard or sorcerer in cool different ways? Well, in PoE that isn't the case.

Dude, I am by no means PoE apologist, but how exactly you could customize your wizard in 2nd DnD IE games?
 

drgames

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PoE is not bad, but it is rather generic.....bland. While playing it, I could feel that there was almost no passion from the beginning of the development, because all the aspects of the game are just..... generic repeated game design formulas; no bold and pioneering ideas (except for the combat, which is kinda....meh), no deep focus or critical thinking on various themes (racism, etc). Obsidian tried to satisfy the nostalgic fans by copy-pasting (badly) the good AND bad things of the previous isomteric rpgs.
I thought that after all these years, by making games, Obsidian would have only improved, but it is not. There was no an evolution, only involution, which is kinda embarassing, becausde BG2 is almost 20 years old, and is still miles way better than this grey turd.
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Yup. A lot of people think of generic fantasy when thinking about BG-like games.
Forests , dungeons, orcs, wizards and stuff. Traverse the land and fight shit.
This departure to piracy, ships and weird Polynesian accents and what have you, certainly did not "click" with that crowd.
BTW, I would't overestimate the importance of the change of setting. BGII also changed the region with a little more exotic one. This could be a case of misdiagnosing the problem.

The irony of history though - through Baldur's Gate, the RTWP isometric RPG became associated with a generic setting, and the designer most vocal about his frustration with this setting ended up charged with producing the spiritual successor and its sequel.

Edit: Lol, you are member #20001. There should have been a reward for that.
 

M. AQVILA

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You know how you have different kinds of spells from summoning, divination, necromancy, etc in the old IE games? The cool different high level spells that gives you a sense of fulfillment at how powerful your character has become since you were level 1? And how you can customize your wizard or sorcerer in cool different ways? Well, in PoE that isn't the case.

Dude, I am by no means PoE apologist, but how exactly you could customize your wizard in 2nd DnD IE games?

I was probably thinking of NWN2 when I wrote that. But you could specialize in different schools of magic and pick from a variety of spells to suit your role in the IE games.
 

Sergiu64

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BTW, I would't overestimate the importance of the change of setting. BGII also changed the region with a little more exotic one. This could be a case of misdiagnosing the problem.

Well, bg2 changed the region in theory - but in practice Amn did not seem particularly different from BG. Biggest difference I saw was in Trademeet due to the middle eastern influences there. It still ended up being Thieves vs Vampires for the first half of the game and bunch of brief detours to different settings in the second half - most memorable of which was the Underdark. Nothing too out of place with anyone that likes Forgotten Realms.

Meanwhile PoE to PoE 2 was a radical switch from medieval Germany/England to the Polynesian isles - and you couldn't escape it. It was Pirates vs. Natives vs. Martime Empire vs. Venetians for the entire damn game.
 

Infinitron

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There were at least a few people who were bothered by BG2's change of style (I love returning to this post): https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...gate-series-thread.80753/page-47#post-3726295

I do not remember the exact date (around 2004?) when my sister told me that her friend has Baldur's Gate II and I was shocked, beacuse I did not know that there was a sequel. I could not wait to play it and wanted to know more about it. She only told me that he did not like it as much as the first one, but I thought that it is impossible, a sequel to such a game cannot be bad. Later I got my own copy of BG2 and was really nervous when launching it for the first time, I wanted it to be such a great game as the first one, if not better.

The menu itself caught me by surprise, it had a very different feel to it. It was not a medieval fantasy of the frist game that I loved so much. It was weird and together with the music had a creepy atmoshpere. The art style was not my thing, but I had to give the game a chance, the menu cannot destroy the game for me. I created the character and I have found that I did not like how the weapons categories were split up to individual weapons. The cutscene with Irenicus played out and my thought was "Oh, in the first game the bad guy was a fighter, now it's time for a mage, I do not like mages.".

It actually was not the fact that Irenicus was a mage that took me back, but the fact that I already knew who the villain was. the magic of discovery suddenly disappeared. Then Imoen joined me and I thought that her portrait was terrible and ugly as the rest of those from BG2, why so many piercings and stuff in their hair? Even Keldorn's armor looked like a metal frisbee got stuck in his neck. I was getting more and move convinced that the artstyle was just ugly for me. It did not have the simplicity and clarity of the first game. The plate mail icon from BG2 will always be a turtle shell in my eyes and those silly paperdolls, just plain awful.

Anyhow I did not give up I was exploring the Irenicus's dungeon and I thought that it was not what I exactly imagined sequel to Baldur's Gate look like. I felt that I was playing a mix between a medieval fantasy with sci-fi with weird tubes and clones. The character animations were laughable as well, especially the streching and 2-handed sword knees-to-the-ground swing. I was in denial at first, I could not believe that this was how Baldur's Gate II looked. After many annoying parts I finally was able to exit the dungeon and got what I thought was just a middle finger from the game. Not the fact tha Irenicus took Imoen, or that I could not cast spells in the city, not even annoynig constant screaming from Minsc. It was the city itself. It was just plain ugly and illogical. I thought that the promenade is the worst looking location I have ever seen in a video game. Am I somewhere in Saudi Arabia? Where is the medieval city of Baldur's Gate?

I still gave the game a chance thinking it should get better later on, it is still a Baldur's Gate game. I do not like the games that start you off inside the big city, immediately I get lost and discouraged (Neverwinter Nights still not finished to this day). One thing that I really disliked about Athkatla is that how fake it feels. Almost every building is connect to some kind of quest. This is not a city, it is a quest-web and I felt like people were almost running at me and slaming their quests into my face. Talk about freedom. My first playthrough ended on the Graveyard District, where I saw a giant mural of a Pharaoh on the floor. This was too much for me, the scenery and atmosphere of the game was just not my thing and I did not care for Irenicus and Imoen, so I had no reason to continue.
 

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