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Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
There are actually others there, but it is obvious that you are trying to cover and obfuscate to "win" the argument.
No, there aren't. The only character that I pointed to for being changed through a mod is Shapeshifter. Unless your argument right now is that BG2 kits in BG1 are themselves an effect of a mod, or perhaps take offense to the tangent about SCS mages, but the truth about Assassins is that they're simply plain good against mages in general.
Suffice to say that I use Fighter kits (Kensai/Berserker) and Wizard "kits" (Wild Mage/Specialisation), but have never bothered with any of the other classes because I don't believe their advantages outweigh their drawbacks in a vanilla game
Your experiences specifically come from a background of "I never bothered to try those other things because they're bad" by your own admission, even though from an objective standpoint they are questionable.
Even looking at pretty much all kits from Paladin (which range from "extremely useful bonuses and immunities to multiple things that come at an absolutely non-existent or negligible drawback (Cavalier, Undead Hunter)" to "fairly broad disadvantages that are entirely counterweighed by their special abilities that just so happen to trivialize a huge portion of both games" (Inquisitor) or Cleric (two new innate spells per alignment, and you get ZERO drawback from picking one of them), and then there's the issue that you named Druids as having bad kits (when two of them are objective gamebreakers in BG1 and the third one isn't even bad in BG1, and the drawbacks for each are almost non-existent).
Totemic Druids lose absolutely NOTHiNG (who the hell uses vanilla shapeshift abilities??) and pick up an insanely tanky summon that, as noted before, had the distinction of being immune to normal weapons in the old versions of TuTu/BGT and still packs massive power from level 1 in the modern conversions, including the EE.
I'm curious now: are you also a proponent of vanilla bards?
Especially the Assassin. When I put a Rogue in my party, I want him to be doing Rogue stuff, not using exploits to win combats. He is there to find traps, disable them, open locks, detect illusions and pickpocket.
Awesome. You do you. Except using a poison ability that is capped at one natural attack per round and requires specific weaponry to truly synergize with in BG1 is hardly an exploit, especially when compared to other things thieves can do in BG1 that they couldn't before (like setting traps before combat). Secondly, BG1 throws so much Thief junk at you (magic items and consumables, but also, like, seven other Thief NPCs) that you're absolutely never strapped for thieving skills, and they come at a soft cap beyond which there is no point to raising them further, so an Assassin is hardly debilitated. Your feelings on exploits do not matter when the question asked is whether vanilla classes are better or not, which they, most of the time, absolutely aren't; we're talking rules as written and not your own preconceived notions on what an exploit is. You're okay with Berserkers, for crying out loud.

Again, you're trying to pick holes at my argument even though they're entirely addressed within the post (I made one (1) admission about mods changing one (1) class as a trivial addendum, and still added a caveat that it hardly impacts the kit's power level in BG1, because Shapeshifter Werewolves actually have good stats for BG1 standards, ergo they're a good kit there).

Anyway, point is, I actually spelled out the numerous uses for kits you consider bad, and right now I also pointed out to you that receiving an overpowered summon you can use to solo entire areas in return for giving up a bunch of shapeshifts no one uses is gamechanging, and I'm waiting for at least a refutation of that argument before you tell me more about what you think and believe in.

The only reason to not bother with certain kits has already been disclosed - because they're majorly powercrept on by duals from mainstay powerhouses (Berserker/Kensai, basically) and multis. On their own, however, they are very rarely not a straight upgrade.
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
There are actually others there, but it is obvious that you are trying to cover and obfuscate to "win" the argument.
No, there aren't. The only character that I pointed to for being changed through a mod is Shapeshifter. Unless your argument right now is that BG2 kits in BG1 are themselves an effect of a mod, or perhaps take offense to the tangent about SCS mages, but the truth about Assassins is that they're simply plain good against mages in general.
Suffice to say that I use Fighter kits (Kensai/Berserker) and Wizard "kits" (Wild Mage/Specialisation), but have never bothered with any of the other classes because I don't believe their advantages outweigh their drawbacks in a vanilla game
Your experiences specifically come from a background of "I never bothered to try those other things because they're bad" by your own admission, even though from an objective standpoint they are questionable.
Even looking at pretty much all kits from Paladin (which range from "extremely useful bonuses and immunities to multiple things that come at an absolutely non-existent or negligible drawback (Cavalier, Undead Hunter)" to "fairly broad disadvantages that are entirely counterweighed by their special abilities that just so happen to trivialize a huge portion of both games" (Inquisitor) or Cleric (two new innate spells per alignment, and you get ZERO drawback from picking one of them), and then there's the issue that you named Druids as having bad kits (when two of them are objective gamebreakers in BG1 and the third one isn't even bad in BG1, and the drawbacks for each are almost non-existent).
Totemic Druids lose absolutely NOTHiNG (who the hell uses vanilla shapeshift abilities??) and pick up an insanely tanky summon that, as noted before, had the distinction of being immune to normal weapons in the old versions of TuTu/BGT and still packs massive power from level 1 in the modern conversions, including the EE.
I'm curious now: are you also a proponent of vanilla bards?
Especially the Assassin. When I put a Rogue in my party, I want him to be doing Rogue stuff, not using exploits to win combats. He is there to find traps, disable them, open locks, detect illusions and pickpocket.
Awesome. You do you. Except using a poison ability that is capped at one natural attack per round and requires specific weaponry to truly synergize with in BG1 is hardly an exploit, especially when compared to other things thieves can do in BG1 that they couldn't before (like setting traps before combat). Secondly, BG1 throws so much Thief junk at you (magic items and consumables, but also, like, seven other Thief NPCs) that you're absolutely never strapped for thieving skills, and they come at a soft cap beyond which there is no point to raising them further, so an Assassin is hardly debilitated. Your feelings on exploits do not matter when the question asked is whether vanilla classes are better or not, which they, most of the time, absolutely aren't; we're talking rules as written and not your own preconceived notions on what an exploit is. You're okay with Berserkers, for crying out loud.

Again, you're trying to pick holes at my argument even though they're entirely addressed within the post (I made one (1) admission about mods changing one (1) class as a trivial addendum, and still added a caveat that it hardly impacts the kit's power level in BG1, because Shapeshifter Werewolves actually have good stats for BG1 standards, ergo they're a good kit there).

Anyway, point is, I actually spelled out the numerous uses for kits you consider bad, and right now I also pointed out to you that receiving an overpowered summon you can use to solo entire areas in return for giving up a bunch of shapeshifts no one uses is gamechanging, and I'm waiting for at least a refutation of that argument before you tell me more about what you think and believe in.

The only reason to not bother with certain kits has already been disclosed - because they're majorly powercrept on by duals from mainstay powerhouses (Berserker/Kensai, basically) and multis. On their own, however, they are very rarely not a straight upgrade.
An exploit is when something synergises with something else in a way that was unintended. As a result, they tend to be very restricted in how they interact. That you don't consider it to be an exploit precisely because of this shows all anyone needs to know about your mental gymnastics.
 

Dzupakazul

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
707
An exploit is when something synergises with something else in a way that was unintended. As a result, they tend to be very restricted in how they interact. That you don't consider it to be an exploit precisely because of this shows all anyone needs to know about your mental gymnastics.
Lmao, what was unintended? The only thing that was unintended is the inclusion of kits into BG1 in the first place, and we're not arguing about that. We're arguing whether kits are overall good or not, and they generally skew towards being better than the base class, something you didn't address in any way other than your own personal belief.
Poison Weapon is an on-hit ability, so obviously you want to maximize its use by picking up as much APR as possible (ergo, Darts), and Assassins have THAC0 issues and high Dexterity, so obviously they want to pick a weapon that they have THAC0 bonuses with if their entire offensive schtick is poisoning people in BG1. What is inherently exploitative about it? Regular, barebones character optimization on a kit that's firmly low-mid tier? :| You can achieve a similar effect with Bows, by the way; you lose 1 APR but have better overall damage and easier itemization, this is especially good on Elf Assassins because they have -1 THAC0 with bows. Show me where in the rules does it say that missiles can't be poisoned, or explain how a single-class Thief using a bow is somehow a powergaming character.
Anyway, I'm done with this argument; it's not worth having because you can't possibly explain the rationale behind anything you say, even though every single one of your concerns is already addressed in the post you're quoting, and at this point the thread is basically derailed; I'm not going to force anyone to read my post four times in a row (because of your misuse of the Quote function) when you don't have the capacity to read even a quarter of it once.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
human dual classing is OP as shit so who needs broken kits anyways
the only kit that makes a huge difference(IMO) is Inquisitor, and only if you're playing with SCS.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
An exploit is when something synergises with something else in a way that was unintended. As a result, they tend to be very restricted in how they interact. That you don't consider it to be an exploit precisely because of this shows all anyone needs to know about your mental gymnastics.
Lmao, what was unintended? The only thing that was unintended is the inclusion of kits into BG1 in the first place, and we're not arguing about that. We're arguing whether kits are overall good or not, and they generally skew towards being better than the base class, something you didn't address in any way other than your own personal belief.
Poison Weapon is an on-hit ability, so obviously you want to maximize its use by picking up as much APR as possible (ergo, Darts), and Assassins have THAC0 issues and high Dexterity, so obviously they want to pick a weapon that they have THAC0 bonuses with if their entire offensive schtick is poisoning people in BG1. What is inherently exploitative about it? Regular, barebones character optimization on a kit that's firmly low-mid tier? :| You can achieve a similar effect with Bows, by the way; you lose 1 APR but have better overall damage and easier itemization, this is especially good on Elf Assassins because they have -1 THAC0 with bows. Show me where in the rules does it say that missiles can't be poisoned, or explain how a single-class Thief using a bow is somehow a powergaming character.
Anyway, I'm done with this argument; it's not worth having because you can't possibly explain the rationale behind anything you say, even though every single one of your concerns is already addressed in the post you're quoting, and at this point the thread is basically derailed; I'm not going to force anyone to read my post four times in a row (because of your misuse of the Quote function) when you don't have the capacity to read even a quarter of it once.
Watching you write walls of text trying to obfuscate your claims is hilarious.
 

smaug

Secular Koranism with Israeli Characteristics
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
6,438
Location
Texas
Insert Title Here
Took a break from CoK to maybe see if I could get into BG2

I can’t. I just can’t this fucking RTWP, awkward movement fuck it.

Really wanted to get into BG2, after playing gold box, game feels very uncomfortable to play.

I’m angry to because I heard so many great things but it’s to fucking weird to play.

goddamn it.

even with 40 or 400 thousand pathnotes or whatever it’s called the Pathfinding is fucking horrendous.
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Took a break from CoK to maybe see if I could get into BG2

I can’t. I just can’t this fucking RTWP, awkward movement fuck it.

Really wanted to get into BG2, after playing gold box, game feels very uncomfortable to play.

I’m angry to because I heard so many great things but it’s to fucking weird to play.

goddamn it.

even with 40 or 400 thousand pathnotes or whatever it’s called the Pathfinding is fucking horrendous.
IE pathfinding is pretty bad, especially in tight areas. Don't click on places far away and keep an eye on your toons. If they start to wander, clicking where you want to go again can get them to form up again.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,509
Location
The Present
Go into the setup utility and increase the amount of pathfinding nodes by, I dunno, 300,000. Are you still playing the unpatched version on the same pentium II AST computer you owned in 1999? Jesus christ.
 

PapaPetro

Guest
human dual classing is OP as shit so who needs broken kits anyways
the only kit that makes a huge difference(IMO) is Inquisitor, and only if you're playing with SCS.
What were some of the OP ones? I remember Mage/Kensai. Anything splashed with thief or fighter also turned out good.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
human dual classing is OP as shit so who needs broken kits anyways
the only kit that makes a huge difference(IMO) is Inquisitor, and only if you're playing with SCS.
What were some of the OP ones? I remember Mage/Kensai. Anything splashed with thief or fighter also turned out good.
Berserker/Mage or Berserker/Cleric. Kensai/Thief.

For solo games, F/T/M is pretty much it.
 

hell bovine

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
2,711
Location
Secret Level
human dual classing is OP as shit so who needs broken kits anyways
the only kit that makes a huge difference(IMO) is Inquisitor, and only if you're playing with SCS.
What were some of the OP ones? I remember Mage/Kensai. Anything splashed with thief or fighter also turned out good.
In the EE it's the wizard slayer > druid, unless they've fixed the exploit where the ws casting failure applied through aoes bypassed all protections. I don't keep up with the bugs & exploits anymore. :P
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Ranger/Cleric multiclass is also pretty good, especially since they get both Druid and Cleric spell progression due to an oversight.
 

Daidre

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
1,975
Location
Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Ranger/Cleric multiclass is also pretty good, especially since they get both Druid and Cleric spell progression due to an oversight.
Surprised me a bit in EEs that they are not. There is switch in .ini files for this one for people who really liked this bug feature.
 

oldmanpaco

Master of Siestas
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
13,609
Location
Winter
Ranger/Cleric multiclass is also pretty good, especially since they get both Druid and Cleric spell progression due to an oversight.
Surprised me a bit in EEs that they are not. There is switch in .ini files for this one for people who really liked this bug feature.
Bioware fixed this in one of their patches back in the day but everyone bitched so much about it they patched it back in.
 

trimethylsilyl

Educated
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
91
Location
xXx420xXx
I think my Aerie is broken.
34htcue.jpg
 

Maggot

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
1,243
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
It's been a while since I played through BG2 but I'm surprised at how much of a drop in quality the dialogue/writing is in comparison to BG1/Black Isle IE games. It's ripped straight out of a corny JRPG.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Did you guys know that there used to be vanilla BG called Baldur's Gate The Original Saga on GOG, but they took it down completely replacing with EE and there's even portrait pack for EE for 2$ there for extra kicker?

Might be wrong on this but heard so.

Question is if it's not on GoG, how does one play actual vanilla if they want to?
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut

PulsatingBrain

Huge and Ever-Growing
Patron
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
6,163
Location
The Centre of the Ultraworld
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
Well I mean if you're good boi

I know direct linking to piracy is not allowed but I'll just say I was able to find the GOG version of what you're after fairly easily, and that would save you having to fuck around with the discs

As for good boi, if you've owned it, ever, I personally don't think there's anything immoral with acquiring a backup
 

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