Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.

[Morality Games]

Might as well as call this "downvote harvesting -- the thread."

I guess mine would be that although I love computer RPGs ahead of all other genres (personally), objectively I doubt they are the best video games or even a particularly stellar example of the medium. RPGs to me are ultimately an analog, tabletop driven experience, and their existence as video games is a lot of artistic concession for little artistic gain.

Implications being:

I know beyond all doubt that Planescape: Torment deserves to have shit sales because it is a shit video game. It should be Chris Avellone's 2nd Edition Planescape module that he ran for his friends and sold on a website for other Dungeon Masters.

Temple of Elemental Evil should never have been adapted into a computer game.

And while I'm glad they do exist for the sake of my enjoyment, computer RPGs are basically an abomination and shouldn't exist generally for the same reason why margarita mix or powdered cocktails shouldn't exist.

Some games in RPG Codex's Best RPGs are NOT RPG.

Witchers ARE RPG.

Just out of curiosity, which ones aren't?

Jagged Alliance 2 for one.

I sort of think it is an RPG though in the same respect that Loki is one of the gods -- in an "honorary" and "adoptive" sort of way, as well as being some kind of relation (turn-based strategy games are the cousins of RPGs, along with adventure games, visual novels, and CYOA) if not clearly of divine lineage.

 

[ProphetSword]

RPGs without combat? The fuck? What's next, shooters without guns?

Damn newfags and their agenda to change everything great about the genre.

MRGA! (Make RPGs Great Again)

 

[jungl]

What is a rpg though? Jagged alliance 2 basically uses wizardry 8 rule set modified where it is actually more complex and tactical.

 

[Lemming42]

RPGs without combat? The fuck? What's next, shooters without guns?

Given the range of things you can do with an RPG (however we define it), it's more akin to suggesting first-person games without guns - which leads us to Thief, Mirror's Edge, etc.

 

[Morality Games]

What is a rpg though? Jagged alliance 2 basically uses wizardry 8 rule set modified where it is actually more complex and tactical.

RPGs - a rules-governed, recreational activity that lets people define and perform an alternate, make believe identity in an imaginary environment.

Stats and spread sheets are attendant to the core RPG experience and not strictly necessary (as long as there are other rules to preserve the coherency and consistency of player identities and the world they inhabit). A nerdy librarian like Gary Gygax wanted to recreate the same sense of adventure he got reading a book like Lord of the Rings and other 70s derivatives, so he created a set of numbers that correlated to abilities each member of the Fellowship as well as the topography of Middle Earth and its environs. These numbers exist to give consistency and accountability to what would otherwise be a child's "Cowboy and Indians" attempt at make-believe -- Gygax and friends didn't want people making up new items or abilities on the spot the way a child might suggest he has a Cloak of Invincibility whenever another child attacks him in a game of make believe, so they created these rules to force people to commit to their choices and earn any changes through effort (through the Experience Points system, with a fixed number of points apportioned among the party from overcoming Balrog or Goblin-like monsters). Hence also the insistence on a moral alignment and punishing players for deviating from it.

Wizardry (along with its cousins/descendants, the JRPGs) basically reproduces one example of the RPG experience (dungeon crawling adventure, as if through Moria) along with rules (spread sheets, etc). It's not *really* an RPG in the fullest sense of term, but then, neither are Planescape or Fallout because their nature as video games imposes hard limits on the player's ability to define and perform their identity.

While again I think that Jagged Alliance 2 is a sort of honorary RPG, the main argument against it being an RPG is that it isn't about developing or acting on an alternate identity in an imaginary setting.

The main argument in favor of it being an RPG is that it has stats, spread sheets, and tactical combat (problem is that these only exist in RPGs because they are necessary for the players to engage in the imaginary activities they like, such as battles and adventure, without breaking the coherency of the imaginary world).

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

How has no one mentioned Disco Elysium in the last few pages? It’s gonna be awesome.

 

[Hyperion]

Dungeon Crawlers aren't that fun.

This is only true because the fans of the genre like bad, boring gameplay which forces the devs to make games that cater to a very specific audience within an already tiny niche market. The controversial opinion here would be: The Codex is no exception, and has shit taste in dungeon crawlers. Elminage sucks, don't let any of them tell you otherwise. It's a boring, shitty, and soulless clone of early Wizardry. Bunches of 1x1, and 2x2 rooms, and unavoidable traps that you can't see 1 space ahead of you is not fun exploration. There's a post in one of the threads (pretty recently) complaining scrolling through combat text is too slow for them, and that makes the game boring. Hold A to Victory for 99% of fights, then come across a boss fight every 10 - 20 hours that makes you think and use strategy is bad gameplay.

Elminage games aren't the only ones they champion either, unfortunately. Stranger in Sword City gets praise as well, but instead of having punishing difficulty it has 0 difficulty. And their 'workaround' for spending hours upon hours of grinding for a Muramasa is to let you set up an ambush against monsters.....with a limited number of uses every time you enter the Labyrinth. Nobody wants to admit that hours of souldraining grinding for an item isn't fun, so they put in one of the worst band-aid fixes imaginable, and even that's half-assed. Why the fuck are my ambushes limited? Just let me do it over and over - you gain NOTHING from being forced to leave the dungeon just to replenish ambush points. Great monster art does not save the game, unfortunately. Oh, and the LP mechanic is stupid to boot. You get triple the stat points, but the character is permadead if they die, but the cost of death is so prohibitive you're going to reload if anyone dies anyway, so just give every 1 LP to make them stronger and that much less likely to die.

Just because it was in Wiz 1 doesn't mean it's good.

Stick with Etrian Odyssey, and Wizardry Gaiden, neither of which get the respect they deserve for actually changing some mechanics because they're Japanese and are on consoles. Fingers crossed Gaiden 2 gets a translation, just don't hold yer breath.

 

[mondblut]

Don't also forget about freedom (originally of looting bodies, stealing from chests and poking environment for traps). And when you cannot stomp a cunt you don't like into the pavement, freedom it is not.

So freedom is about the possibility to kill something, but not the opposite? What exactly isn't rpgish in solve some conflict with some character stat-based bribing, deceit, stealth, persuade, drug, etc?

Show me ONE man who ever demanded RPGs to NOT have any of these

 

[ProphetSword]

RPGs without combat? The fuck? What's next, shooters without guns?

Given the range of things you can do with an RPG (however we define it), it's more akin to suggesting first-person games without guns - which leads us to Thief, Mirror's Edge, etc.

No, it's not. First-person games without guns have existed longer than the shooter genre has been around. The early RPGs, like Wizardry, are in first-person. Thanks for trying to twist what I said into something that fits your agenda, though.

 

[Lemming42]

Thanks for trying to twist what I said into something that fits your agenda, though.

 

[mondblut]

RPGs - a rules-governed, recreational activity that lets people define and perform an alternate, make believe identity in an imaginary environment.

This is a rules-governed, recreational activity that lets people define and perform an alternate, make believe identity in an imaginary environment:

These are RPGs:

 

[CryptRat]

I wish cRPGs were stuck in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

[Modron]

99% of all JRPGs are stuck in the late 80s/early 90s - in the worst context possible. It's obvious that Japanese developers took what were choices made due to technical limitations, thought they were the intended goal, and never moved past them. The remaning 1% are interactive movies, like the Persona series.

Modern JRPGs are actually much worse and creatively dead when compared to JRPGs from the 80s and 90s.

 

[Neanderthal]

99% of all JRPGs are stuck in the late 80s/early 90s - in the worst context possible. It's obvious that Japanese developers took what were choices made due to technical limitations, thought they were the intended goal, and never moved past them. The remaning 1% are interactive movies, like the Persona series.

Modern RPGs are actually much worse and creatively dead when compared to RPGs from the 80s and 90s.

FTFY.

 

[Cryomancer]

JRPGs are good.

Only those who doesn't forces me to be an androgynous teenager with an oversized sword saving the world, doesn't have 95%+ of gameplay time grinding, etc

 

[Fairfax]

How has no one mentioned Disco Elysium in the last few pages? It’s gonna be awesome.

Controversial opinions about RPGs

 

[mondblut]

It's obvious that Japanese developers took what were choices made due to technical limitations, thought they were the intended goal, and never moved past them.

That would in fact be highly commendable were it not for the fact that their other source of inspiration was retarded cartoons.

 

[wyes gull]

That would in fact be highly commendable were it not for the fact that their other source of inspiration was retarded cartoons.

If only it were the titty ones.

 

[Mikeal]

Whilre we're on it. Traps aren't gay.

 

[Strange Fellow]

All blobbers have bad combat, no, I'm not going to justify this claim with examples, it's just literally true and you know it.

Wizardry 8 pisses all over this point.

 

[anvi]

Aaaaa I hate traps in games. It's not so bad if the trap appears as you approach (one game I played recently but can't even remember the name of did a good job of this). But walking through a powerful trap unless you stop to search every 2 seconds is just dumb aspieshit. I like setting traps though.

 

[anvi]

All blobbers have bad combat, no, I'm not going to justify this claim with examples, it's just literally true and you know it.

Wizardry 8 pisses all over this point.

Wiz 8 combat is awesome, but the endless grind of that game ruins it for me. I think M&M Legacy had good blobber combat too. I quite like blobbers if there are plenty of spells and combat abilities. But generally I think they are too simple and I would always prefer TOEE style.

 

[Lilura]

Whilre we're on it. Traps aren't gay.

 

[Barbalos]

There are way too many tactical grid-based strategy-RPGs out now. Like new PC Shadowrun style games. I feel like there are a million of them and they aren't different enough from eachother to stand out to me. I don't know if that's a controversial opinion, and I also do not really like that sub genre very much. Generally I find the combat takes too long to resolve and there is usually a ton of the super slow-paced combat in these games. The mechanics and attributes etc. may or may not be interesting, novel, or impressive to me at all. Generally not.

 

[Modron]

All blobbers have bad combat, no, I'm not going to justify this claim with examples, it's just literally true and you know it.

Wizardry 8 pisses all over this point.

One could argue that wizardry isn't a blobber if they wanted to because your party and enemies actually have formations and can be individually placed separate from others and that placement determines who can attack/be attacked from where. Really only called a blobber because of tradition.