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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate III retrospective series by Bob Case (MrBtongue)

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Remember this guy? He used to make videos, now he blogs on Shamus Young's website. Mostly about non-Codex relevant topics, until now.

https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=47487

Baldur’s Gate III

baldursplash.jpg


I was expecting many things to happen in the year of Our Lord 2019, but the announcement of a third entry in the Baldur’s Gate series was not one of them. After all, the last entry in the series, the Throne of Bhaal expansion, is now old enough to buy cigarettes in most states. There was said to be a third game in the series planned back in 2003[1], but it was never made, and is now consigned to the history’s what-if pile alongside a third Black Isle Fallout[2]. Since then, Beamdog (developer of the BG and BG2 enhanced editions) has occasionally made noises about making a sequel, but their resources were never equal to the task.

But lo, it has returned. A franchaise last seen in 2001. That was a whole different era. Having Baldur’s Gate III announced at this late hour makes me feel unmoored from linear time. It’s like if Al Gore ran for president, or Phil Jackson suddenly announced he was getting Shaq and Kobe back together again. For RPG fans of a certain age, Baldur’s Gate is one of the four gospels of the Infinity Engine era, along with the two Fallouts and Planescape: Torment.

baldur1-1.jpg

I know this much: if I can't romance a Mind Flayer, the game will be an unmitigated failure.


What’s more, it’s to be made by Larian Studios, a developer with both a strong pedigree and a healthy reserve of audience goodwill. Given all that, I should be more excited than I am. That’s probably partly down to the lack of gameplay footage, or indeed any kind of information at all[3], but it’s also down to three questions:
  1. Is the Baldur’s Gate series as good as everyone remembers it being?
  2. Is Larian the right developer for this game?
  3. Is today’s world as interested in Baldur’s Gate III as we think it is?
The fanboy in me answers all three of the questions with an enthusiastic “yes!”, but the cranky old goat in me craves longer and more detailed answers. My attempts to find those answers will be the subject of this upcoming Saturday series of posts. Of course, they can’t be answered with a simple yes or no, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be answered at all.

baldur1-2.jpg

Art from the planned tabletop prequel campaign, called 'Descent into Avernus.'


Answering each is also best accomplished by looking at certain games: the Baldur’s Gate series, the Divinity: Original Sin series, and the Pillars of Eternity series, which is closest thing to a “modern” Baldur’s Gate to be found. So thorough and detailed will be my analyses that at the end of the series, I will successfully predict BG3’s metacritic score to within a margin of error of three points.[4]

As luck would have it, I was planning to replay the series before the E3 announcement, and am currently polishing off the last bits of BG2 and getting my opinions on it in a row. Next week we’ll start with that. There’s also the possibility that in the course of writing this series new information about the upcoming game will come to light – if so, I can cover that as well. See you soon.

I can't wait to see how much this pisses Lilura off.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
  1. Is the Baldur’s Gate series as good as everyone remembers it being?
YES
  1. Is Larian the right developer for this game?

NO. nobody is
  1. Is today’s world as interested in Baldur’s Gate III as we think it is?
NO
 

Shadenuat

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
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In my opinion best videos are about C&C and Magic. Sadly developers don't take first one into consideration; and the Magic one is important because it makes important points against the common belief that magic must have rules.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
OK, here we go: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=47570

Baldur’s Gate III: Partying Like It’s 1998

baldursplash.jpg




I will now present to you an extremely abridged history of PC role-playing games:

Once upon a time, there was tabletop role playing, and it’s most famous example, Dungeons and Dragons. The hobby grew out of the tabletop wargaming hobby. In these early days, there was no conventional wisdom yet about what a tabletop RPG should be, and the genre took off into a dozen different disparate directions. Some faded away, while others became mini-traditions of their own.

In such an environment, trying to guess what a critical mass of potential customers actually want is partly an exercise in guesswork, and partly an exercise in trial and error. TSR (it’s publisher) put D&D through a refinement process, resulting in several different versions of the game. I won’t go into this in too much detail, partly because I don’t really know it. But the first “edition wars” sprung up over these different versions of tabletop roleplaying’s flagship franchaise.



baldur2-1.jpg

When you're rolling your stats, this is the screen you'll see for a split second before you hit 'reroll' again one too many times.


Looking back now, I see this as an iterative process. TSR (or later, Wizards of the Coast) would put out a new version, wait for the community’s opinion to coalesce enough that you can locate a center, then start working on the next version. This process, while not exactly democratic, was at least democracy-adjacent. The community and the developers worked together as well as they could manage to collectively wrangle into the light what exactly it was we all wanted this thing of ours to be.


Eventually, this process made its way onto the PC. I’m actually just barely old enough to remember Pools of Radiance, which I played somewhere around age ten or eleven, though I don’t believe I ever finished it, or even managed to puzzle out how exactly THAC0 worked. It didn’t hold my interest – it was too weird, rough, and difficult to play. It couldn’t hold my interest as well as, say, the Final Fantasy series, which was just getting started at the time.

So I didn’t play the first Baldur’s Gate when in was released in 1998. In fact, I didn’t play either game in the series until sometime in the mid-2000s (I don’t remember exactly when). There’s a sort of swap meet/outlet mall in Los Angeles called the Slauson Super Mall where I happened across used copies of both the Fallout and Baldur’s Gate series. Most likely it’s the best ten dollars I ever spent.

The reason I include all this backstory is as context for my attempt to puzzle out what it was then-rookie developer Bioware was trying to do with the game. Nowadays (largely thanks to Bioware itself) people have a relatively clear and developed idea of what a PC RPG should look like, but back then the genre was a somewhat uncomfortable adjunct to the tabletop experience.



baldur2-2.jpg

The titular city. A little strange seeing it all at once, or at least it is for me.


The basic problem is that a computer is no substitute for a live DM. Tabletop roleplaying is a tricky balance or freedom and restriction, requiring multiple snap subjective judgments every time a player decides they want to try and bluff the guards, create a molotov cocktail out of a whiskey bottle, or whatever shenanigans they inevitably get up to.

On the other hand, a computer has certain advantages over a live DM. Dice rolls and their attendant calculations, for example, can be done in a flash, greatly speeding up combat. Artists and builders can create dozens of maps and mini-quests – never again will the DM have to tell the party they can’t go to Blackrock Castle because he hasn’t made maps for it yet. Best of all, it doesn’t require anyone to herd 3-8 cats into the same house at the same time, which is possibly the single most difficult thing about the traditional tabletop experience.



baldur2-3.jpg

From the opening cinematic of Beamdog's remake. I kind of miss the old clunky proto-CGI they had in the original.


Given all this, I’m going to try and put myself in the headspace of Bioware circa 1996 or so. They want to make a PC RPG, so they want to make a game that takes the most advantage of the medium’s strengths while trying to minimize or maneuver around its weaknesses. So they made a game that:
  • Was combat-heavy: An encounter that might take an hour to resolve in a tabletop setting might take just a few minutes on a PC. Dungeons and Dragons had developed a battle-tested rhythm of fight-breather-fight again, and keeping that rhythm in a new environment meant adding more fights.
  • Was real-time with pause: I suspect this was partly a reaction to the popularity of RTS games at the time. The verdict is mixed to this day on how well this type of gameplay has aged.
  • Was deliberately Dungeons and Dragons: It’s set in the Forgotten Realms setting so much that both Drizzt andElminster show up. Excepting the switch to real-time with pause, it imported the ruleset of the time wholesale. It even (miraculously) manages to import the hardscrabble vibe of a low-level D&D campaign.
  • Provided players with as much freedom as common sense allowed: The game does not railroad. It points you towards the next point in the story but expects and even wants you to get distracted along the way. The slow pace of leveling (see ‘low-level campaign’, above) facilitates this, as it’s forgiving towards doing things out of order.
  • Had a minimalistic story: The game’s “main quest,” so to speak, is not the focus of the gameplay but more like a set of checkpoints. It deliberately avoids interfering with the player’s independence.
  • Started to focus on companions: The companions of the original game aren’t quite as memorable as some of the standouts of later Bioware, but they’re more memorable by far than anyone in a PC RPG before the Infinity Engine era. I see this as an attempt by the developers to recreate some of the camaraderie and variety of a tabletop gaming session.
  • Focused on worldbuilding and ambiance: The hand-painted backgrounds are gorgeous and rightly praised, but I’ve also always thought that the sound design in these games were excellent, from the barks to the ambient sounds of wind/surf/nature.
Given the complexity of the task, I’d rate their success as admirable. I recently replayed the whole series[1], and was surprised at how well the session-to-session experience of the game held up.

Of course, some things hold up better than others, and we’ll get into more specifics once I actually get into my playthrough, which starts next entry.
 

Infinitron

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Staff Member
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Codexer vs popamoler: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=47705

Baldur’s Gate III: Achilles and The Grognard

baldursplash.jpg




It is now time for an unscheduled tour of my creative process, such as it is. Originally, I had planned this series out a certain way, and it was all very well organized and so forth. A big part of my writing process is just figuring out what order I want to say things in, and I thought I had an order that would work. Then when I started writing it the whole thing fell apart and I realized I needed to reorganize. I realized that I couldn’t do this alone. I needed help.

So I brought in two of my friends. Their names are Achilles and The Grognard. We all agreed that they would sit down and play through Baldur’s Gate while I sat nearby and recorded their conversations. It’s all very scientific and official.

I did this because I think this game is best viewed from more than one perspective. The Baldur’s Gate series[1] – also known as the Bhaalspawn saga – is generally considered to be one of the high-water marks of the genre, an achievement in visuals, atmosphere, mechanics, and reactivity. It has also become an object of nostalgia, and the widespread belief that they just don’t make’em like that anymore. How to best locate the real Baldur’s Gate through the fog of its reputation? By employing a pair of guides. Let’s meet them.

The Grognard was born on November 30th, 1978, and the original Baldur’s Gate came out on her twentieth birthday. A tabletop veteran, she spent her college years immersed in the many classics of the Infinity Engine era – games that, to her, set a standard that has yet to be met since. To the Grognard, PC RPGs are like Saturday Night Live in that in any given year, they were better five years ago. The direction the genre has taken in the last ten years has filled her with disappointment, which she self-medicates with deliberately cultivated hope. Maybe yesterday’s magic has not been lost, she tells herself. Maybe there are enough people out there, schooled in the old ways, to bring it back. Maybe the developers of Larian studios are the chosen people, here to lead us back to the promised land.

Achilles was born exactly twenty years later, on November 30th, 1998, the day the first Baldur’s Gate was released. He’s never played it – in fact, he’s never played an Infinity Engine game. The first roleplaying game he can remember playing is Fallout 3[2] on the Xbox 360 during his half-remembered days of adolescence. During his teenage years he caught the RPG bug, catching up with Mass Effect, Skyrim, Dragon Age, and others. He’s aware of the old classics, but he’s never played them.

The scene: two people on a couch. They look like however you want them to, but the art is reminiscent of a 90’s era webcomic. On the screen opposite them is:



baldur3-6.jpg

The title screen for the 'enhanced edition' of the game, with the 'Siege of Dragonspear' add-on installed.


The Grognard: This already feels wrong.

Achilles: Why?


The Grognard: We’re sitting on a couch, for one. This is not the way our ancestors played. And for another, this is the enhanced edition of the game, the Beamdog one. The remaster. It’s sacriligious in several ways. It doesn’t even have the original Dagger of Venom! It would be one thing if you modded together the two games, with Tutu for example, but this? This is like seeing Hamlet as an Instagram story.

Achilles: I only understood about a third of the words you just said. Why wouldn’t I play the enhanced edition? It’s the same as the original game, but doesn’t look like it was rendered using a potato battery. Do you want to go back to the way it was? Look upon 1998, and despair!



baldur3-4.jpg

For years I thought Khalid had a beard. It wasn't until I saw his portrait in higher resolution that I realized that had been a shadow all along.


The Grognard: Yes, it’s true RPGs look better now than they did back then, but there’s more to a game than the graphics.

Achilles: This way we get the game AND the graphics. And why would it matter where we’re sitting? You have something against couches?

The Grognard: Where you sit is part of the experience! For PC games, you sit at your desk. For tabletop games, you sit at the table. It changes your mentality, your perspective. I’m here to make sure you don’t play the game wrong – that you play it with the right mentality.

Achilles: You see, this is where I think you can learn something from me. The game has an obligation to entertain me; if it doesn’t meet that obligation I stop playing it. I don’t have an obligation to the game – to play it a certain way, or with a certain “mentality.” If the game isn’t fun, that’s the game’s fault, not mine.

The Grognard: There’s a certain pro-consumer sentiment there I don’t want to stifle, so I’ll rephrase. There’s a skill to appreciating Baldur’s Gate. It was made for a certain time – a time when PC RPGs were trying to replicate the tabletop experience, and should be experienced as such. And if you follow my wise, guiding hand, you’ll discover what I mean.

Achilles: I, on the other hand, am here to cushion your disappointment. It’s obvious you’re attached to this game. You played it at a formative time in your life, I get it. It’s a rose-colored glasses thing. But now all of its jank and weirdness is finally going to be witnessed by an objective third party, and I’m going to have to start saying things like “well, it was their first game with these tools,” or “I see what they were going for there,” or “they just didn’t have the technology back then.” Things like that, to make you feel better.

The Grognard: I would be offended by that if I wasn’t an impenetrable fortress of self-confidence. Your sympathy won’t be necessary. This game holds up. People still play it, over twenty years later – still mod it even. There’s a reason it was remade into this version. Speaking of which, we should start our game. Have you thought about what type of character you want to roll?

Achilles: You bet. A kensai, who switches to mage at either level 9 or 13, I haven’t decided yet. Oh, and I’m gonna dual-wield longswords.

The Grognard: That’s not a character. That’s a build. You’ve never played these games before, so I’m going to assume you got it off the internet?

Achilles: I can hear you making a face when you say that. Yes, I got it off the internet. This ruleset is famous for being confusing and unintuitive. I don’t want to get forty hours in and realize I picked a trap build, so I just googled “Baldur’s Gate OP” and went with the first post I saw.

The Grognard: But what character do you want to play? Never mind the numbers – who are they, what is their personality? Or, how about this: which character portrait did you pick?

Achilles: Well, the coolest-looking one is Top Hat Guy.



baldur3-7.jpg

Top Hat Guy. Since the character and PC portraits are reused, this is also the portrait of an NPC called Quayle.


The Grognard: All right – it’s a starting point. Now, because I’ve played this game, I happen to know that “Top Hat Guy” is a gnome, not a human, so you won’t be able to dual-class – you’ll have to multi-class instead.

Achilles: What’s the difference? Is that going to gimp me? Is it going to make my THAC0 too low, or too high, or whichever one is the bad one?

The Grognard: Too high is the bad one. And I promise not to gimp your character. A gnomish fighter/illusionist will do just fine. Alignment?

Achilles: Do I have to pick one? Don’t they just let you say “unaligned” now? The closest thing is chaotic neutral, so I’ll pick that.

The Grognard: At this point I feel I should remind you that we want to roleplay, not just make a standard-issue chaotic neutral murder hobo.

Achilles: I thought you wanted this to be like tabletop gaming. Aren’t murder hobos a tabletop tradition? If it’ll make you happy, fine, we’ll roleplay. Top Hat Guy has always been a free spirit. Pulling pranks, stealing things, that sort of thing. It fits with the illusionist thing.

The Grognard: A prankster – a schemer. Okay, we can work with that. Now, for the ability scores.

Achilles: So you can reroll your ability scores as many times as you want? I’ll just keep clicking until I have all 18s.

*thirty minutes later*

The Grognard: Achilles. I’m begging you. Just stop. Just go with your saved roll, it’s a 93. It’s plenty high.

Achilles: What, and let the game win? I once saw a screenshot of someone who got triple digits!

The Grognard: At some point I want to actually play the story. I promise you, this character is not gimped. How do you want to arrange your points?

Achilles: This is the hardest part, probably. Do I dump WIS or CHA? You know what, how about both.

The Grognard: Well, you rolled stats for half an hour, so you can only “dump” them down to ten apiece. Would persuading you to consider your character here be a lost cause? A gnome with 18 STR?

Achilles: He’s like the Shaquille O’Neal of gnomes. He often gets mistaken for a stocky human, or a tall dwarf. It’s why he multiclassed into fighter. Built like Barry Sanders, give or take. But with a top hat and a cane.



baldur3-8.jpg




The Grognard: Against all odds, I’m starting to be able to picture this guy in my head. Weapon proficiencies?

Achilles: Dual-wielding and longswords, of course. Don’t roll your eyes. I know how these things work. Dual wielding is always good, and there’s gonna be, like, twenty good longswords. The other weapons will have one or two good ones apiece that you don’t get until you’re 80% done with the second game or something.

The Grognard: First of all, this game is a classic. You should have more faith in the itemization. Second, this is a prank-pulling gnome. His weapons should reflect his personality and inventiveness. I say… he dual-wields a morningstar and a wakizashi.

Achilles: Am I reading this right? “Longsword” is one proficiency, “katana” is another, and “scimitar/wakizashi/ninjato” is a third? Don’t all those weapons fall under the category of “long sharp metal thing”? Why do they need three seperate proficiencies?

The Grognard: You think this is bad? First edition had, I believe, 24 different polearms. You had to know the difference between a ranseur and a voulge. But this fits the character. That cane in his portrait – say it’s made of tropical hardwood, and has a lead core in the handle. He can swing it around like a shillelagh. And the wakizashi is small enough to conceal inside his coat.



baldur3-9.jpg




Achilles: I’m getting a tiny little Gandalf vibe here. Okay, I admit that is kind of cool. Now I have to pick spells?

The Grognard: Your starting spells. Don’t worry about it too much, you can learn any ones you skip from scrolls later.

Achilles: Well, sleep is a classic. Blind sounds useful, and I have to pick one illusion spell anyway. And charm person may have comedy potential. I’ll pick those. For voices, none of them are quite right, so I’ll pick the posh-sounding english guy who says his spleen hurts when he gets injured.

The Grognard: Well chosen. And, to top it all off, “Achilles Grognard” sounds like the type of name a gnome would have.

Achilles: According to the cinematic, I’ve lived my whole life with my foster father, Gorion, at Candlekeep, which is essentially a giant library. But now I have to leave suddenly. And so our adventure begins.



baldur3-5.jpg

Standing outside the inn in candlekeep. In the enhanced edition, pausing the game greyscales the background, which is convenient.


The Grognard: And so our adventure begins.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,000
Pathfinder: Wrath
Oh, no, the whole "two perspectives" thing. Spoiler warning: even if there are two perspectives on an issue, it doesn't mean they are both valid and both must be heard.
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
4,235
Oh, no, the whole "two perspectives" thing. Spoiler warning: even if there are two perspectives on an issue, it doesn't mean they are both valid and both must be heard.

Those people are made up. They don't exist. Nobody speaks like that.
 

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