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Blizzard announced "Classic" World of Warcraft

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,825
Divinity: Original Sin
Nonsense, you are just mad you didn't get your pew pew. It's quite clear to me what it was they were trying to do, which was to avoid making a reskinned warrior.

Balance of the class is a pointless concept. Hybrids were never intended to fulfill primary roles as well as pure classes. If they made a mistake with the paladin is that he should have been a better tank than a healer (while the druid should have been a better healer than a tank, instead it was the other way around). Certainly not a dps class though.

What it was never meant to be was a dress-wearing wimp standing back and spamming FoL and they said as much in the Blizzcon 2005 but that was when the damage was already done, not just from class design perspective but how the image of the Paladins were tainted for years to come in eyes of the community. That is not the Paladin people originally coming from earliel games rolled and that is not the Paladin they had played in Warcraft 2 and 3. There's a reason the iconic Paladin art and gameplay has been that of upgrade from a Knight into most powerful melee character in second game with good anti-undead and healing capabilities and two-handed hammer wielding melee hero attacking/healing hybrid in third.

Addition of Seals play into the downfall of the class because they had perfectly functional and unique system (that they copied almoust 1 to 1 for DK class in WotLK) which was built around simple stack rotation and strong short term buffs. That was all scrapped and what they released was -completely- untested as Seals came around about the same time beta servers went down.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,629
Sorry mate, paladins in war3 cast healing spells, and their ultimate is a healing spell that cures death. They don't even have an offensive ability.

In the retail game ret paladins are basically reskinned rogues. Feels awful to play. The only time ret was well-done was wrath.

I agree paladins should have had more numerically effective tanking in classic, because they had the right toolkit for it and there was a shortage of tanks.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,631
Nonsense, you are just mad you didn't get your pew pew. It's quite clear to me what it was they were trying to do, which was to avoid making a reskinned warrior.

Balance of the class is a pointless concept. Hybrids were never intended to fulfill primary roles as well as pure classes. If they made a mistake with the paladin is that he should have been a better tank than a healer (while the druid should have been a better healer than a tank, instead it was the other way around). Certainly not a dps class though.

What it was never meant to be was a dress-wearing wimp standing back and spamming FoL and they said as much in the Blizzcon 2005 but that was when the damage was already done, not just from class design perspective but how the image of the Paladins were tainted for years to come in eyes of the community. That is not the Paladin people originally coming from earliel games rolled and that is not the Paladin they had played in Warcraft 2 and 3. There's a reason the iconic Paladin art and gameplay has been that of upgrade from a Knight into most powerful melee character in second game with good anti-undead and healing capabilities and two-handed hammer wielding melee hero attacking/healing hybrid in third.

Addition of Seals play into the downfall of the class because they had perfectly functional and unique system (that they copied almoust 1 to 1 for DK class in WotLK) which was built around simple stack rotation and strong short term buffs. That was all scrapped and what they released was -completely- untested as Seals came around about the same time beta servers went down.

I don't see how getting stuck with healing in raids is a deficiency of the seal system. That was a problem with the idea of what an hybrid class should be as they conceived of it initially, because the ability to fulfill more than one role just not as well as a pure class translated in getting stuck with the one role that didn't need to be maximized, which was healing, and that was true for ALL of the hybrids with healing capabilities, like the druids and the shamans, and unless you want to claim those classes were also finalized at the last minute without "testing", than it's clear the issue was not with the design of the paladin class per-se.

The paladin was also designed after the hero in Warcraft 3, NOT the paladin in Warcraft 2, and the paladin in Warcraft 3 was most definitely a support class. You wanted a dps monster, you went Mountain King.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,089
Won't the content be released in stages? So end game content will be released over time, keeping people busy at least a year I'd say; not to mention that not many people will see Naxx in the first place or run around in full epics asap. And I'd argue that vanilla has quantifiable rewards much more than BfA since things are much harder to come by.

If it's anything like EQ's prog servers than content would be released in stages spread out months apart.

EQ had a more structured layout of main content being contained within expansions, so they just spread out expack releases at certain intervals depending on each prog servers rules.

I know enough to WoW to know that major content was released in between expacks, but I don't know how that would be structured. From what I played of WoW and EQ's prog servers I couldn't see everyone just playing Release WoW for the 3-4 months to get to MC or AQ, either MC or both would have to be in at the start because most people will make a bee line for raid content and get there insanely quick. For EQ prog servers original EQ Content was done by leading guilds within a week or slightly more.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I have had Classic videos in the background, particularly listening to leveling advice. Paladin had so many mechanics that went over my head, it's almost embarrassing. I didn't realize the seal efficiency could so heavily depend on the exact swing speed, the length of the fight, group or solo content, etc. I also give props to whoever developed the reckoning farm build for paladin.

I actually like the seal system. It's unique and fits the concept of the class like a glove. They eventually got turned into warriors with just different cosmetics. Not to say the class didn't need some work but it's another piece of evidence the original devs were smarter than those that followed, since they tried to make each class feel different from the others, instead of just having different reskins of the same basic types.

Be ready to wear a skirt for raids though.
I can live with that, as I just want a solid healing character for raiding and PVP. I would have gone Priest, but my friends wants to play it, and I did not see much sense in our group having 2 priests to start.

Not all the systems and mechanics in Vanilla were winners, but I can see that there was an attempt to create a unique style for each class.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
11,118
Location
USSR
"Hey guys come register your names at midnight".

12 minutes later still can't log into the game to register jack shit.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,089
Anyone know anyway to track down an old account if you haven't touched it in like.... 12 years?
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
10,000+ queue to get into one server, that was rough. I got my name though, which no one saw coming.
Maculo
As soon as I clicked to see the realm, I noticed it sent me to the wrong fucking one, and so I had to do it again.

Based on that experience, August 27 is going to be a mess. 10,000+ queue for one server, consisting of people just trying to reserve a name. Now, imagine all the normal people logging in as well.
 
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Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,523
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Saw some people from my old guild posting on the forum meetup Blizzard has going on. But I can't quite figure out why I should play again. I've done all the raids way back when. Compared to the difficulty now all of the old content is a complete joke. Back then nobody really knew what they were doing, that magic is gone. Now everything is optimised to the tenth decimal point.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
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Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
11,118
Location
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10,000+ queue to get into one server, that was rough. I got my name though, which no one saw coming.
Show Spoiler Maculo
As soon as I clicked to see the realm, I noticed it sent me to the wrong fucking one, and so I had to do it again.
Exactly my fucking experience as well.

By the time I got on Shazzah (it was around 00:35), literally a DOZEN names I considered were already taken. The name I wanted the most was Cyric. Some fucking DND nerds took all my names. I'm now staring at a screen with a character not knowing how to name it.

"Reserve your name" my ass.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
10,000+ queue to get into one server, that was rough. I got my name though, which no one saw coming.
Show Spoiler Maculo
As soon as I clicked to see the realm, I noticed it sent me to the wrong fucking one, and so I had to do it again.
Exactly my fucking experience as well.

By the time I got on Shazzah (it was around 00:35), literally a DOZEN names I considered were already taken. The name I wanted the most was Cyric. Some fucking DND nerds took all my names. I'm now staring at a screen with a character not knowing how to name it.

"Reserve your name" my ass.
You may be able to reserve those names on other realms. I reserved "Maculo" on three different servers to be safe.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
11,118
Location
USSR
There's no point. I intend to play on Shazzah. I took some third tier names that I didn't even want that much.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
The /v/ and reddit rage threads are comforting, namely that at least I am not the only one raging at this process.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,629
The queues you guys are complaining about are for the login servers, not the game servers.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
The queues you guys are complaining about are for the login servers, not the game servers.
Given the queues just to reserve a name, don't you think the game servers will be similarly swamped, at least the starting zones? 10,000+ people tried to hit Herod at once.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,629
The queues you guys are complaining about are for the login servers, not the game servers.
Given the queues just to reserve a name, don't you think the game servers will be similarly swamped, at least the starting zones? 10,000+ people tried to hit Herod at once.
That's why they developed the 'layering' tech. I think the servers will feel authentically crowded, but I don't expect them to catch on fire.
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
Anyone know anyway to track down an old account if you haven't touched it in like.... 12 years?
Call blizzard.

Submitting a ticket and then gonna try calling tomorrow.
Blizz answered my ticket in few days a month ago or so and got me my old account back, which was pretty amazing.

And one good thing about being EU was that I got all 3 of my favourite names on the realm of my choice without any hassle so that was great.
 

frajaq

Erudite
Joined
Oct 5, 2017
Messages
2,402
Location
Brazil
shit like this on the forums always cracks me up

8vgK7uM.jpg
 

Wilian

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
2,825
Divinity: Original Sin
Nonsense, you are just mad you didn't get your pew pew. It's quite clear to me what it was they were trying to do, which was to avoid making a reskinned warrior.

Balance of the class is a pointless concept. Hybrids were never intended to fulfill primary roles as well as pure classes. If they made a mistake with the paladin is that he should have been a better tank than a healer (while the druid should have been a better healer than a tank, instead it was the other way around). Certainly not a dps class though.

What it was never meant to be was a dress-wearing wimp standing back and spamming FoL and they said as much in the Blizzcon 2005 but that was when the damage was already done, not just from class design perspective but how the image of the Paladins were tainted for years to come in eyes of the community. That is not the Paladin people originally coming from earliel games rolled and that is not the Paladin they had played in Warcraft 2 and 3. There's a reason the iconic Paladin art and gameplay has been that of upgrade from a Knight into most powerful melee character in second game with good anti-undead and healing capabilities and two-handed hammer wielding melee hero attacking/healing hybrid in third.

Addition of Seals play into the downfall of the class because they had perfectly functional and unique system (that they copied almoust 1 to 1 for DK class in WotLK) which was built around simple stack rotation and strong short term buffs. That was all scrapped and what they released was -completely- untested as Seals came around about the same time beta servers went down.

I don't see how getting stuck with healing in raids is a deficiency of the seal system. That was a problem with the idea of what an hybrid class should be as they conceived of it initially, because the ability to fulfill more than one role just not as well as a pure class translated in getting stuck with the one role that didn't need to be maximized, which was healing, and that was true for ALL of the hybrids with healing capabilities, like the druids and the shamans, and unless you want to claim those classes were also finalized at the last minute without "testing", than it's clear the issue was not with the design of the paladin class per-se.

The paladin was also designed after the hero in Warcraft 3, NOT the paladin in Warcraft 2, and the paladin in Warcraft 3 was most definitely a support class. You wanted a dps monster, you went Mountain King.

Alright, first we'll have to establish that there are two distinct versions of Paladin. And I do not speak of the distinction between WC2 and WC3 because that actually matters little.

There is the narrative Paladin and then there's the PvP meta Paladin gameplay for online lobbies or just random matches against AI

The narrative Paladin has always been a frontline fighter with a good support for his allies and this is emphasised through various things. In Warcraft 2 this was elaborated through the gameplay, they were upgrade from the Knight unit and single most powerful melee character of the Alliance, as well as text, describing them just as what they were, valorous knights who had taken into religious crusade against the evil magics of the orcs.

When we come to Warcraft 3, narratively nothing has changed. This too is emphasised through the storyline gameplay that has you constantly fed with items emphasising your melee gameplay as well as your character wielding massive two handed weapon while using Light to shield himself and many story related events having you charge first in line to do your duty through cinematics.

Why this is important? Because we have confirmation that what Blizzard originally intended for the Paladin in WoW was to be the Paladin of the narrative, not the Paladin of the meta gameplay from Warcraft 3 lobbies and expectations when you did play the class and wasn't one of the online players was to be the one to actually stick to melee while supporting your friends from close distance. We have two cases of this;

One is interview with Metzen from before TBC and how he was disappointed in the design direction of the Paladin because the class was never meant to just stand back and heal. They were meant to be at the thick of it, utilizing fast single target heals like Flash of Light and powerful buffs like Blessings for the quick spot heals. That is why all tier items until Naxx emphasised hybrid gameplay in their stats and bonuses.

Another is Blizzcon 2005. When they were talking of the class updates that focused on single class per patch, Blizzard did say that they wanted to bring Paladin into melee. This is the turning point, because at this stage the reputation and the community view of the class had changed. Blizzard were literally booed at because the view of the community had been molded into hating anything that is not a Holy Paladin standing back in dress and healing. This is the turning point because in later interviews after the infamous Paladin 'fix patch' and prior TBC/during TBC launch they outright admitted they wanted to bring Paladin to melee but community response from non-Paladins made them hesitate and just apply some minor changes that altered nothing.

How does this tie back to Seals? We had the narrative Paladin. It was functioning with it's own unique system that relied on short term blessings, they were called the Seals instead before the patch, were more powerful but with shorter duration to have the support gameplay elevated with simple yet effective combat stack system that they copied for Death Knights in WotLK. It was taken away from us and replaced without testing, without oversight on anything how it could affect the class and reception and just to clean the negative it caused meant they spent dev time on fixing shit system that was totally undeveloped instead of focusing on actually fixing fundamental issues of design like they did with most other classes. And when they could've done it the community damage was already done. That is why you kept seeing Paladin revamp over and over again while most other classes got incremental or additive things when game progressed to TBC and through it's patches, and further as well as why most other specs became far more viable faster than say, Prot or Retribution did.

Now we can have discussion about conspiracy about why they did this (Most of the old community was convinced it was because that raid leader from EQ got lead class design role and hated hybrids after they stole his spot as tank in some raid) but I doubt that'd be fruitful at all.
 
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J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,629
You keep repeating that comment about DKs, as if it helps your dubious statements, but without elaboration it works against you. It reads like this: "that system you can't see in the game anymore was the same as this system that was never implemented 5 years prior, therefore..."
 

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