Max Edge
Guest
Asian games are better than Western.
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Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.
- Thread starter hivemind
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Cryomancer
Arcane
Depends. Those who don't force you to play as an androgynous teenager with an oversized sword...
Get SpeedHack! It can turn a 15 minute battle into 1 minute.
How dare you.
rusty_shackleford
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2018
- Messages
- 50,754
A large part of the "skill" in (most) RPG combat is shared with something you wouldn't consider: Poker.
The fundamental similarity is the ability to mitigate bad RNG and capitalize on good RNG.
ProphetSword
Arcane
Or, they’re based on something most would consider...and hear me out on this controversial idea...tabletop RPGs, where you also mitigate bad RNG and capitalize on good RNG. It’s almost like the developers of CRPGs did that intentionally...
CharacterNik
Novice
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2019
- Messages
- 46
Fallout total conversions Nevada, Olympus and Resurrecion are better then any AAA game of last years.
Sonora and Mutants rising will prove it again this year.
Sonora and Mutants rising will prove it again this year.
Skdursh
Savant
How is this controversial? Saying that is basically the same as walking around handing out handjobs to everyone on the forum.
KeighnMcDeath
RPG Codex Boomer
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2016
- Messages
- 13,048
Is that some sort of sexual euphemism or just Cloud bashing?
That would actually be pretty controversial in practice.
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Difficulty comes from what a game demands and how much it punishes mistakes:
-Twitch reflexes (RPGs usually do not demand this at all)
-Memorization (most aspects have been filtered out through casualization over the years, e.g. journals, lore codex, quest log, etc)
-Resource management (generally gone nowadays)
-Combat tactics (Can almost always be overcome through grinding.)
-Retry/Failure costs (Save points galore and low death penalties usually make this moot)
-Mystery/Puzzle solving (Largely spoon fed)
-Mazes (long defeated by the automap).
-Character building (Still matters to many games, but definitely on the way out)
Conclusion: RPGs are the easiest games on the market, one step above walking simulators and Evony clones. Winning them is a function of time, not skill. Sure, if you're really good at the game you can beat Fallout at level 1, but no amount of grinding will ever beat Super Mario Brothers.
Cryomancer
Arcane
Not true. The majority of MODERN rpg's are. But look to Tomb of VARN on M&M VI
I play a lot of FPS games too and the hardest moments that i had while gaming was on RPG's, not modern RPG's, but older RPG's. About grinding, it is extremely common on jRPG's, but i don't see much grinding on most games that i play.
Why is that controversial?
Not true. The majority of MODERN rpg's are. But look to Tomb of VARN on M&M VI
I play a lot of FPS games too and the hardest moments that i had while gaming was on RPG's, not modern RPG's, but older RPG's. About grinding, it is extremely common on jRPG's, but i don't see much grinding on most games that i play.
I just replayed M&M6 a month or two ago and the Tomb of Varn is some serious shit. There was one large area that must have had 50 genies in it. And finding your way around - yea, the automap for that dungeon is not all that helpful.
I also find RPGs more challenging, generally, than other game genres. That and strategy games, particularly the 4x variety. I never particularly found FPS games to be all that challenging, with the exception of some of the puzzle-heavy Thief fan-missions.
I got this thread mixed up with the other 2 threads on this topic. To add my point and related to the RPGs require brains but not skill, I would say the best RPG was EverQuest largely for this reason. It required the smarts of an RPG, but also the skill of an action game. It isn't like any other MMORPG, it was more of an old school and traditional RPG than most RPGs.
The game is basically AD&D with some tweaks, but it plays out in real time. It still has turns and dice rolls, they just happen automatically as you play. It is slow enough that you get to think about what you are doing, but fast enough that it mostly feels like an actual battle. Imagine a good RTWP game like Baldur's Gate 2, only you can't pause... It has the depth of TOEE, but you can't ponder every move. You have to think about your battle strategy outside of battles. Once a battle begins, you have to do what you have learned without hesitation. Tactics are mostly the same as any RPG. But the fact that it plays in real time adds a whole new dimension. Mostly in a group it is just like an RPG, tank, heal, nuke, crowd control, but when something unexpected happens, there is a huge amount of skill required to turn the tables. Also if you play it solo with one character, this increases massively.
It requires the smarts of a true RPG, but it also requires skill to run around, get into the right positions, and click the right things quickly and accurately. The skill cap can be higher than probably any other MMO. It isn't all the time, but if you try to solo kill a 'named' enemy that is designed for a full group of 6 people, even a good player is likely to die in no time. But a really good player could win. It was a big success relative to the time and budget, but it is sad it didn't have a bigger impact on the industry. Because in every discussion about what is best, turn based or rtwp, I always think about how completely real time is the best option but nobody even knows it because they haven't seen how good it can be. Every MMO since then is so simplified and dumbed down that they don't resemble RPGs at all. And almost every RPG is oblivious to the world of MMOs. Until the two genres converge in the future, I wont be satisfied.
The game is basically AD&D with some tweaks, but it plays out in real time. It still has turns and dice rolls, they just happen automatically as you play. It is slow enough that you get to think about what you are doing, but fast enough that it mostly feels like an actual battle. Imagine a good RTWP game like Baldur's Gate 2, only you can't pause... It has the depth of TOEE, but you can't ponder every move. You have to think about your battle strategy outside of battles. Once a battle begins, you have to do what you have learned without hesitation. Tactics are mostly the same as any RPG. But the fact that it plays in real time adds a whole new dimension. Mostly in a group it is just like an RPG, tank, heal, nuke, crowd control, but when something unexpected happens, there is a huge amount of skill required to turn the tables. Also if you play it solo with one character, this increases massively.
It requires the smarts of a true RPG, but it also requires skill to run around, get into the right positions, and click the right things quickly and accurately. The skill cap can be higher than probably any other MMO. It isn't all the time, but if you try to solo kill a 'named' enemy that is designed for a full group of 6 people, even a good player is likely to die in no time. But a really good player could win. It was a big success relative to the time and budget, but it is sad it didn't have a bigger impact on the industry. Because in every discussion about what is best, turn based or rtwp, I always think about how completely real time is the best option but nobody even knows it because they haven't seen how good it can be. Every MMO since then is so simplified and dumbed down that they don't resemble RPGs at all. And almost every RPG is oblivious to the world of MMOs. Until the two genres converge in the future, I wont be satisfied.
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Cryomancer
Arcane
I strongly agree. And created an thread about it > https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/did-wow-ruined-mmos.129253/
But wowfication is ruining SP games too....
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2013
- Messages
- 798
I honestly can't remember one game that required "smarts" in the last, oh, 20 years or so. Are you meaning like smart enough to read? Smart enough to walk up to a door that won't open and go and search for a key?
Basically message boards made games easy for anyone without enough game discipline to work things out sans help.
Old Sierra games had a hint line posted on game boxes people could call to get hints. Other games as well.
I think that is where decline started. When a player could find answers the developer wanted them to find on their own. Much like in DND when a GM wants to run players through a module the DM has to hope no one has already read the module thus making all his/her GM tricks and surprises a waste of his/her time and ruins the game session. Dedicated players were aware of this and would not exploit. Case in point were DND tournaments where players would compete while running through a new module. Can you imagine being a player at a tournament featuring The Tomb of Horrors? Tomb of Horrors is an adventure module written by Gary Gygax for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. It was originally written for and used at the 1975 Origins 1 convention.
I'm guilty of this game heresy.
The most enjoyable times I have had are playing blind some old game like Amberstar.
Edit: There is one crpg requiring smarts : Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance
Other than that old games just require time and determination to slog through it all.
Then there are the games that require sacrifice to the RNG gods.
Ok here is my controversial opinion.
Myself and other gamers are the cause of the Decline.
May Xagyg the Mad forgive me.
"In the World of Greyhawk campaign setting and the 3rd Edition core pantheon of deities in the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, Zagyg(formerly known as "Zagig Yragerne") is the god of Humor, Eccentricity, Occult Lore, and Unpredictability. His symbol is the rune of insanity."
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Besides being an ancient game AND a long dead subgenre (blobbers), Tomb of VARN is still a function of time and grinding over anything else. The most you can say about MM6 is it has kiting and sidestepping, which are arcade DOOM FPS mechanics.
Cryomancer
Arcane
No, is not. For the starters, there are enemies who takes only physical damage, all types of powerful enemies that even at high level are hard, complex puzzles, is extremely hard to navigate... IS not an easy dungeon. Did you played the dungeon to say that is only about time and grinding??? What is the next? You will say that to play Tomb of Horrors require no skill from the player/DM? or that Eye of the Beholder III is an easy game? According to steamarchivements, only 0,5% of players managed to reach floor 30 on endless dungeon of PF:KM and only 6% completed the story. For a comparison, 1/3 of Dark Souls Remasters owners had the archivement of defeating the gravelord nito. You can see a lot of people complaining about wild hunt and even bosses who require thinking to be defeated.
If you think that PF:KM is easy, please. Complete the game on Last Azlanti/Unfair mode. Be adviced that only 0,2% of players managed to finish on last azlanti mode.
PS : I agree that most modern RPG's require nothing, except time from the player but most modern games too...
Kaivokz
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,504
Except grinding extra lives.
Besides the main thing you said was "challenge can be overcome by grinding" ... so, don't grind? Just beat it with skill and tactics.
Lilura
RPG Codex Dragon Lady
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2013
- Messages
- 5,274
I never said Golden Age, I said Renaissance.
Good luck with your Fag Era coming close to 1997-2003:
Fallout
Fallout 2
Baldur's Gate
Planescape: Torment
Jagged Alliance 2
System Shock 2
Baldur's Gate 2
Deus Ex
Icewind Dale
Diablo 2
Arcanum
Gothic
Wizardry 8
Neverwinter Nights
Morrowind
Gothic 2
Icewind Dale 2
Temple of Elemental Evil
Silent Storm
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