Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2, Temple of Elemental Evil & Silent Storm Retrospectives

[Mazisky]

Sigh, Ja2 is the only game in history who matched Xcom in both quality and features, providing a strategic and a tactical layer. I cannot think about any other game who did that.

The Age of Wonders games?

Different feelings because in both Xcom and Ja2 battles feels intimate (that lonely dude into the building shooting at you at night) , AOW is more large scale.

 

[Roguey]

I'm a 100% sure the enemies respawned in Shadow Mulsantir each time you visited it or even if you rested.

Well the authoritative source is right here to confirm/deny. Even if that can happen (I don't remember it at all), why would you lawnmow them all again? As the authoritative source just mentioned, there's just one encounter in front of the Death God's vault and there's no reason to go anywhere else on a return visit (since the second level of the vault is the only place you're not allowed to go).

Edit: Found a less-authoritative source that claims the monsters outside do respawn after a day or so, but the point still stands.

 

[Lilura]

Well the authoritative source is right here to confirm/deny.

I'm not an authoritative source on MotB (though I could be). I hyperlinked "authoritative source" as an ongoing joke, and because my screencaps and blogposts don't lie. I have no reason to lie but 'Dex shitposters, such as the specimen in this thread, has every reason to make shit up as it goes along, in order to appear knowledgeable and experienced with minimal effort.

 

[Lilura]

Different feelings because in both Xcom and Ja2 battles feels intimate (that lonely dude into the building shooting at you at night)

Silent Storm, too. I haven't actually timed the tactical battles, but they must take upwards of an hour. The larger ones, a couple. In that time, we become deeply familiar with our weapons, squad members and the environment. I find that quite enjoyable. Also, that we are outgunned/outnumbered for the most part.

 

[Martyr]

has every reason to make shit up as it goes along, in order to appear knowledgeable and experienced.

fuck knowledge. we're talking about video games here and not about metaphysics.
also I even admitted that everything I've said is based on memories on a game that I haven't played for 10 years, maybe even more than that. I didn't ask for your opinion, I didn't ask for help. I just said what was wrong with MotB according to my memory.

 

[Mazisky]

Different feelings because in both Xcom and Ja2 battles feels intimate (that lonely dude into the building shooting at you at night)

Silent Storm, too. I haven't actually timed the tactical battles, but they must take upwards of an hour. The larger ones, a couple. In that time, we become deeply familiar with our weapons, squad members and the environment. I find that quite enjoyable. Also, that we are outgunned/outnumbered for the most part.

True but Silent Storm isn't comparable because it has no strategy layer where you spend hours in. That's half of this genre.

Only Xcom and Ja2 did this. (and Omerta, but it was a bad game).

 

[Efe]

Lilura since you love JA, how would you order xcom games from best to worst?

 

[Lilura]

True but Silent Storm isn't comparable because it has no strategy layer where you spend hours in. That's half of this genre.

Well, I noted in the write-up that Silent Storm lacked a strategy mode, but I thought you were speaking of "intimacy" as it pertained to the tactical modes, since you mentioned "battles" and "a lone gunman shooting at night" or something.

At any rate, their tactical modes can at least be compared: I've already written 2,000 words comparing their movement rules and hit probability alone, but I haven't yet published it and I'm not sure if I will.

Lilura since you love JA, how would you order xcom games from best to worst?

As I said, I'm not an expert on XCOM (though I could be). I played the Amiga version, long ago. Then dabbled in XCOMUtil. Unlike many other commentators and forum-goers, I don't rank games that I'm not an expert on, and I don't pretend to know things that I don't.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Silent Storm lacks strategy mod from Jagged Alliance, but Jagged Alliance lacks investigation mod from Silent Storm.

 

[Lilura]

Silent Storm lacks strategy mod from Jagged Alliance, but Jagged Alliance lacks investigation mod from Silent Storm.

To be fair, investigations are as shallow as a puddle and only result in map-markers added to the overworld (either ! or ?). Indeed, Silent Storm's global/regional overworlds are as shallow as a puddle in comparison to the contiguous and dynamic 256 sector overworld that represents Arulco.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Silent Storm lacks strategy mod from Jagged Alliance, but Jagged Alliance lacks investigation mod from Silent Storm.

To be fair, investigations are as shallow as a puddle and only result in map-markers added to the overworld (either ! or ?). Indeed, Silent Storm's overworld is as shallow as a puddle in comparison to the contiguous and dynamic 256 sector overworld that represents Arulco.

It is shallow, but it is extremely reactive. It changes your walkthrough (available missions/plot) significantly and also adds a lot of depth to the missions. Finding clues by themselves is nothing special (just playing looting and hunting pixels), but often you have to play mission in a very specific way to be able to do loot them at all - not to let them destroyed by time expiration or damage. So you have to play more effective/aggresive, but also more careful.

 

[Lilura]

I wouldn't say "extremely reactive" because investigations don't change outcomes significantly. At bottom, it's just a reshuffling of map-order based on profession and chosen progression (you can miss out on map-marker ! if you bee-line map-marker ?). The missions and their parameters are basic and yawn-inducing. It's the tactics that stand out.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Where to buy jagged alliance and what versions?

 

[Lilura]

I just have original CD version bought when the game came out, patched to 1.12. It includes Unfinished Business, so I guess it's the Gold version.

I suppose GoG would be the best place to get the game.

Whether GoG or CD, most people employ Stracciatella for easy compatibility.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Coming back to Silent Storm. Finding clues is often about doing certain missions in certain order under certain conditions in order to gain access to secret missions and better understanding of the story. Not as deep as overworld strategic mode, but still a very nice addition, especially considering that the rules of what you have to do are not arbitrary and gamey, but logical and derrived from story.

 

[Modron]

All versions commercially available these days are the same, I mean you could of course go buy a talonsoft version there are a couple sub 15 dollar ones on ebay surprisingly.

 

[Egosphere]

Shadow Mulsantir enemies respawn. I distinctly remember fighting those black guys that are outside the door with the big skeleton on top twice

 

[Lilura]

Coming back to Silent Storm. Finding clues is often about doing certain missions in certain order under certain conditions in order to gain access to secret missions and better understanding of the story. Not as deep as overworld strategic mode, but still a very nice addition, especially considering that the rules of what you have to do are not arbitrary and gamey, but logical and derrived from story.

My point is, regardless, for completionists, it comes down to doing ! missions before ? missions. That way, we yield all clues and get to explore all sectors for +experience points and +itemization.

I wish modders would mod this game properly and fix its issues properly (they never did)... so much could be done to expand its questing, reactivity and tactics etc.

But this is such a niche game...

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Coming back to Silent Storm. Finding clues is often about doing certain missions in certain order under certain conditions in order to gain access to secret missions and better understanding of the story. Not as deep as overworld strategic mode, but still a very nice addition, especially considering that the rules of what you have to do are not arbitrary and gamey, but logical and derrived from story.

My point is, regardless, for completionists, it comes down to doing ! missions before ? missions. That way, we yield all clues and get to explore all sectors for +experience points and +itemization.

I wish modders would mod this game properly and fix its issues properly (they never did)... so much could be done to expand its questing, reactivity and tactics etc.

But this is such a niche game...

Its better to do a spiritual remake.

 

[Lilura]

Its better to do a spiritual remake.

No. They wouldn't get it right. No one knows how to make games like JA2 and SS anymore. The proof is all about us.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Its better to do a spiritual remake.

No. They wouldn't get it right. No one knows how to make games like JA2 and SS anymore. The proof is all about us.

I was planning to do SS spiritual remake after I do Blade of Darkness, TOEE & Wizardry 8 / Wizards and Warriors spirtual remakes.

As far as modding community goes - it seems there is one. Check the description of "Redesigned 2 (2018) mod for SS -> https://www.playground.ru/files/operation_silent_storm_redesigned_2_2018-178627/
Looks like a huge mod which rebalances and adds tons of content (weapons, npcs, maps, animations, story, game mechanics). They replaced tutorial with custom battle mode.
Maybe hope is not lost.

 

[Efe]

lilura is a nihilist?
have some hope.
also you better give xcom apocalypse a try. you cant do fancy shit like in silent storm maybe, but you can level an entire building with explosives.

 

[Lilura]

Spiritual remakes, successors, whatever you want to call them, are for agents of decline.

Apocalypse? I played it back in 2000-ish.

Also, please bear in mind: I don't jump from one game to another like some other commentators and average forum-goers. I go HARD on games and I play them and talk about them until I've exhausted them and myself.

IOW, I'm not ready to drop Silent Storm yet. After my Axis run and two more write-ups, I've got two more SS games to commentate on as well.

Also, SS has a UFO:

Where we find this ray-weapon:

It's OP. Sort of like the Alien Blaster in Fallout.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

It's OP. Sort of like the Alien Blaster in Fallout.

It's laser rifle from original X-com.

 

[Covenant]

It's laser rifle from original X-com.

Wait, is that screenshot from the original X-Com, unmodded? I seem to remember being able to build laser rifles before you even knew what Elerium-115 was - hell, potentially before your first mission.