The rpg codex preferences, 2005-2014. Decline, incline and presentism.

[North Gibraltarian Dog]

After to read a thread of a general 2010 poll in which Jaesun collected a couple of links to old surveys without going into much detail, I thought it would be interesting to have in a single thread and in text format the top positions and most relevant data of the 5 largest polls in regard codex favourite crpgs over 15 years.

Why I made top-38/40:

Spoiler

The polls use different methodology, the data is not always public in its integrity and the resulting lists vary greatly in size. For this reason I decided to set the limit before 59th position (the only public data available in 2005 poll, that include secret vote) and preferably before 42th position also (because in 2010 Jaesun only showed games positions until 42th, even if he said 41, to don't count all votes again). I set the final limit in 38 games for 2005 poll (because is the last clear cut before 59) and I try to limit to 38 games if was possible. In 2005 and 2007 polls, final positions are shared so I collect top-40s.

So here we have the 5 top 38/40 crpgs list from 2005, 2007, 2010, 2014 and 2019:

1.- 2005 poll, Unofficial Codex Top Ten, organized by Jed, =~ 66 codexers voted*. The poll allowed secret votes sending pm to Jed. There wasn't point system, some users put a top 10 in order, most whithout. Only the 59 games with 3 or more votes were listed:

Spoiler

Rpg Codex Top 38 crpgs, 2005

1. Fallout: 57 votes.
2. Planescape: 46 votes.
3. Fallout 2: 42 votes.
4. Arcanum: 40* votes.
5. Baldur's Gate 2: 28 votes.
6. Deus Ex: 22 votes.
7. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 21
8-9 Ultima VII: The Black Gate = 19 votes.
8-9. Baldur's Gate: 19 votes.
10-11. System Shock 2: 16 votes.
10-11. Gothic 2: 16 votes.
12. Daggerfall: 13 votes.
13. Morrowind: 12 * votes.
14. KotOR: 11 votes.
15-17. Icewind Dale: 10 votes.
15-17. Jagged Alliance 2: 10 votes.
15-17. KotOR II: 10 votes.
18. Ultima Underworld: 8 votes.
19-21. Gothic: 7 votes.
19-21. The Temple of Elemental Evil: 7 votes.
19-21. Wizardry 8: 7 votes.
22-26. Dark Sun: WotR: 6 votes.
22-26. Eye of the Beholder: 6 votes.
22-26. Geneforge: 6 votes.
22-26. Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail: 6* votes.
22-26. Ultima IV : 6 votes.
27-31. Arx Fatalis: 5 votes.
27-31. Betrayal at Krondor: 5 votes.
27-31. Prelude to Darkness: 5 votes.
27-31. Ultima VII: Serpent Isle: 5 votes.
27-31. Wasteland: 5 votes.
32-38. Avernum 3: 4 votes.
32-38. Bard's Tale: 4 votes.
32-38. Buck Rogers: CtD: 4 votes.
32-38. Darklands: 4 votes.
32-38. Lands of Lore: 4 votes.
32-38. M&M 5: Dark Side of Xeen: 4 votes.
32-38. Ultima Underworld II: 4 votes.

* In the list of codexers that Jed mentioned is not present some user that don't seem to be troll and there are users that don't vote publicly. Also, some game seems to have some vote more only counting public votes, but maybe those users votes weren't allowed for some reason.

2.- 2007 poll, The Codex Top 10, take 2, proposed by Lumpy. 67-68 voters, +18 voters after page 5 not counted. Voting system: 10 games selection with the following point distribution: 2 favorites with 3 points each, 3 good ones with 2 points and 5 honourable mentions with 1 point each:

Spoiler

Rpg Codex Top 40 crpgs, 2007

1. Planescape: Torment: 136 points.
2. Fallout: 122 points.
3. Arcanum: 90 points.
4. Fallout 2: 85 points.
5. BG 2: 74 points.
6. Vampire: tm-Bloodlines: 60 points.
7. Morrowind: 41 points.
8. Gothic 2: 39 points.
9. KotOR 2: 30 points.
10. Ultima 7: 29 points.
11. Deus Ex: 22 points.
12. KotOR I: 20 points.
13-15. Daggerfall: 19 points.
13-15. Gothic: 19 points.
13-15. Neverwinter Nights 2: 19 points.
16-18. Baldur's Gate 1: 17 points.
16-18. Gothic 3: 17 points.
16-18. Temple of Elemental Evil: 17 points.
19. Wizardry 8: 16 points.
20. System Shock 2: 14 points.
21. Realms of Arkania 2: 13 points.
22. Icewind Dale: 12 points.
23-25. Darklands: 11 points.
23-25. Neverwinter Nights: 11 points.
23-25. NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer: 11 points.
26-27. Jade Empire: 9 points.
26-27. Ultima Underworld: 9 points.
28-29. Ultima 5: 8 points.
28-29. Wizardry 7: 8 points.
30. Jagged Alliance 2: 7 points.
31. Prelude to Darkness : 6 points.
32-40 Anachronox: 5 points.
32-40 Betrayal at Krondor: 5 points.
32-40 Final Fantasy 6: 5 points.
32-40 Final Fantasy 7: 5 points.
32-40 Might & Magic 6: 5 points.
32-40 Might & Magic 7: 5 points.
32-40 Oblivion: 5 points.
32-40 Ultima 4: 5 points.
32-40 Wasteland: 5 points.

3.- 2010 poll, The Nature of The Codex, organized by Jaesun. 191 codexers voted for 109 games. If I understood correctly and voting thread is that of New RPG Codex Holy Trinity™ your fav top 5, voters listed their top 5 with no order, so no points only mentions/votes count:

Spoiler

Rpg Codex Top 40 crpgs, 2010

1. Fallout: 122 votes.
2. Planescape:Torment: 110 votes.
3. Arcanum: 68 votes.
4. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 61 votes.
5. Fallout 2: 59 votes.
6. Baldur's Gate II: 58 votes.
7. Mask of the Betrayer: 33 votes.
8. Deus Ex: 33 votes.
9. Morrowind: 29 votes.
10. Gothic 2: 28 votes.
11. Ultima VII: 24 votes.
12. Wizardy 8: 20 votes.
13. Jagged Alliance: 2 18 votes.
14. Temple of Elemental Evil: 12 votes.
15. Daggerfall: 11 votes.
16. Wasteland: 10 votes.
17. Realms of Arkania: Star Trail: 10 votes.
18. Wizardry 7: 9 votes.
19. Baldur's Gate: 9 votes.
20. Neverwinter Nights: 9 votes.
21-24. The Witcher: 8 votes.
21-24. Gothic: 8 votes.
21-24. KotOR II: 8 votes.
21-24. Darklands: 8 votes.
25-30. Dark Sun: the Shattered Lands: 6 votes.
25-30. Betrayal at Krondor: 6 votes.
25-30. Pool of Radiance: 6 votes.
25-30. System Shock 2: 6 votes.
25-30. Dragon Age: 6 votes.
25-30. Mass Effect 2: 6 votes.
31-33. KotOR: 5 votes.
31-33. Ultima Underworld: 5 votes.
31-33. Fallout 3: 5 votes.
34-37. Ultima V: 4 votes.
34-37. Alpha Protocol: 4 votes.
34-37. Diablo : 4 votes.
34-37. Arx Fatalis: 4 votes.
38-40. Might & Magic VI: 3 votes.
38-40. Starflight: 3 votes
38-40. Ultima Underworld II: 3 votes.

4.- 2014 poll, RPG Codex's Top 50/72 cRPGs well organized by felipepepe. 234 codexers voted for 223 games. First try of felipepe voting system™, 25 points to distribute freely among crpgs with 1-5 points range:

Spoiler

Rpg Codex Top 38 crpgs, 2014

1. Planescape: Torment: 530 points, 152 votes.
2. Fallout: 509 points, 146 votes.
3. Fallout 2: 371 points, 115 votes.
4. Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn: 333 points, 116 votes.
5. Arcanum: 313 points, 106 votes.
6. Vampire: tM-B: 239 points, 101 votes.
7. Morrowind: 194 points, 74 votes.
8. Fallout: New Vegas: 165 points, 67 votes.
9. Gothic 2: 148 points, 63 votes.
10. Wizardry 8: 130 points, 44 votes.
11. Deus Ex: 128 points, 59 votes.
12. Mask of the Betrayer: 111 points, 49 votes.
13. Jagged Alliance 2: 108 points, 35 votes.
14. Dark Souls: 104 points, 35 votes.
15. Wizardry VII: 103 points, 33 votes.
16. Betrayal at Krondor: 94 points, 36 votes.
17. Baldur’s Gate: 93 points, 46 votes.
18. Darklands: 87 points, 30 votes.
19. KotOR II: 86 points, 44 votes.
20. Ultima Underworld: 85 points, 27 votes.
21. The Temple of Elemental Evil: 82 points, 39 votes.
22. Icewind Dale: 78 points, 37 votes.
23. System Shock 2: 78 points, 32 votes.
24. The Witcher: 67 points, 38 votes.
25. Might and Magic VI: 57 points, 26 votes.
26. Gothic: 56 points, 31 votes.
27. Knights of the Chalice: 55 points, 29 votes.
28. Might and Magic IV-V: WoX: 54 points, 21 votes.
29. Alpha Protocol: 52 points, 17 votes.
30. Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail: 50 points, 15 votes.
31. Dark Sun: Shattered Lands: 48 points, 21 votes.
32. Wizardry 6: 47 points, 16 votes.
33. Dragon Age Origins: 38 points, 24 votes.
33. Ultima VII. TBG: 38 points, 17 votes.
35. Daggerfall: 37 points, 16 votes.
36. Pool of Radiance: 36 points, 17 votes.
37. M&M VII: 35 points, 17 votes.
38. Ultima IV: 35 points, 14 votes.

5.- 2019 poll, RPG Codex's Top 101 PC RPGs, organized again by felipepepe. 361 codexers voted 278 rpgs. felipepe voting system™ was used again, with some controversy:

Spoiler

Rpg Codex Top 38 crpgs, 2019

(I only included points and votes in top 10, to check the others: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...mwCeFhw6RoX_iMa8ZshNdZxEz4/edit#gid=238442825 )

1. Planescape: Torment: 576 points, 190 votes.
2. Fallout: 512 points, 171 votes.
3. Baldur's Gate II: 435 points, 151 votes.
4. Arcanum: 387 points, 143 votes.
5. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
6. Fallout 2
7. Fallout: New Vegas
8. Deus Ex
9. Gothic II
10. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
11. The Age of Decadence
12. Dark Souls
13. Pathfinder: Kingmaker
14. Jagged Alliance 2
15. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
16. UnderRail
17. Gothic
18. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II
19. Baldur's Gate
20. Wizardry 8
21. Neverwinter Nights 2+ Mask of The Betrayer
22. Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar
23. System Shock 2
24. Icewind Dale
25. Betrayal at Krondor
26. Pool of Radiance
27. Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven
28. Shadowrun: Dragonfall
29. Wizardry VII: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
30-31. Ultima VII
30-31. Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen
32-33 Divinity: Original Sin
32-33 Divinity: Original Sin 2
34 Kingdom Come: Deliverance
35 Dark Sun: Shattered Lands
36 The Witcher
37 Ultima Underworld I: The Stygian Abyss
38 Elex

Now some balanced conclussions:




The decline of the old favourites (positions from oldest list to newest):

-Daggerfall: 12 > 13 > 15 > 35 > 54

-Ultima VII: 8 > 10 > 11 > 33 > 30

-Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail 22 > 21 > 17 > 30 > 42

-Ultima IV 22 > 32 > below 42 > 38 > 51


The (moderate) incline of classics in recent polls (from oldest to newest):

-Pool of Radiance: below 59 > 79 > 25 > 36 > 26

-Dark Sun: Shattered Lands: 39-59> 52 > 25 > 31 > 35

-Betrayal at Krondor: 27 > 32 > 25 > 16 > 25

-Wizardry VII: below 59 > 28 > 18 > 15 > 29

-M&M VI: below 59 > 32 > 38 > 25 > 27



Could be interesting to do a list with some kind of average between 5 big general polls throughout the last 15 years. However there are some relevant divergences between them: the first poll could have some private votes, in 2 polls points weren't used, only 2 of the 3 points-based polls use the same method and there is a progressive growth in participation with each poll. So, I think would be preferable to use positions instead votes or points to include all 5 polls.

Methodology:

Spoiler

-Calculate average between positions to produce a number and then sort from lower to higher.

-When several games share a place, all them get the points corresponding to the true rank they shared, the first one.

-For games that aren't present in every poll, we could distribute some bonus in some of the most relevant cases, to allow comparison, avoiding presentism but favouring the presence on the list of potential new classics:

-Games with 3-4 appearances and games in the last two ranks/2019 novelties, ranking equal or higher than 19th position in at least one poll, receive a 41th position bonus (because the last place is 32-40th in 2007 and 38-40th in 2010) in those polls in which they are absent.

This isn't mathematically accurate but is a good aproximation to codex favourites average in the 2005-2019 period.

12 old games and 8 new games get those bonuses. Only Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age Origins made enough merits to dispute the 4 last places on the list (that go to 2019 top 4 new games with this method), but other honorable mentions are little further.

Every other game that rank in 1-2 top-38s only, but below 19th position are excluded of this list.

Rpg codex top 38 crpgs, 2005-2019, using positions average in 5 top crpgs polls:

1. Planescape (Average of 1.4)

2. Fallout (1.6)

3. Arcanum (3.8)

4. Fallout 2 (4.2)

5. Baldur's Gate II (4.6)

6. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines (5.6)

7. Deus Ex (8.8)

8-9. Morrowind (9.2)

8-9. Gothic 2 (9.2)

10. Baldur's Gate (15.8)

11. Wizardry 8 (16)

12. KotOR II (16.4)

13. Jagged Alliance (17)

14. Ultima VII (18.4)

15. Gothic (19.2)

16. System Shock 2 (20.2)

17. Mask of the Betrayer (20,8)

18. The Temple of Elemental Evil (22.2)

19. Daggerfall (23.2)

20. Icewind Dale (24.8)

21. Betrayal at Krondor (25)

22-23. Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail (26.2)

22-23. Wizardry VII (26.2)

24. Ultima Underworld I (26.4)

25. Darklands (27)

26. KotOR I (27.8)

27. Fallout: New Vegas (28)

28. Dark Souls (29.8)

29. Wasteland (31.4)

30. Might & Magic VI (32.6)

31. The Witcher (32.6)

32. Pool of Radiance (33.8)

33. Dark Sun: Shattered Lands (34.6)

34. Ultima IV (34.8)

35. Age of Decadence (35)

36. Pathfinder: Kingmaker (35.4)

37. The Witcher 3 (35.8)

38. Underrail (36)


-Honorable mentions: Alpha Protocol, Dragon Age: Origins, Prelude to Darkness, Grimoire, Arx Fatalis, Eye of the Beholder, Geneforge and Gothic 3 (17th in 2007).




Games in all lists: Top 16 games + Ultima Underworld and Betrayal at Krondor

Games in 4 lists: Mask of the Betrayer, The Temple of Elemental Evil, Daggerfall, Realms of Arkania II, Darklands, Wizardry VII, Might & Magic VI and Icewind Dale.

Games in 3 lists: KotOR I, Pool of Radiance, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, Ultima IV, Wasteland and The Witcher.

Games in 2 lists: 2014 top novelties, New Vegas and Dark Souls.

Games in 1 list only: 2019 top novelties, The Age of Decadence, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, The Witcher 3, Underrail.

PS. Jaesun! not Jasede

 

[North Gibraltarian Dog]

To do an average-ranks' top 38 crpgs list (because as I said before, is not possible to do with points):

There are different ways to do it, the most simple is to calculate average between positions to produce a number and then sort from lower to higher.

When several games share a place, all them get the points corresponding to the true rank they shared, the first one.

For games that aren't present in every poll, we could distribute some bonus in some of the most relevant cases, to allow comparison, avoiding presentism but favouring the presence on the list of potential new classics:

Games with 3-4 appearances and games in the last two ranks/2019 novelties, ranking equal or higher than 19th position in at least one poll, receive a 41th position bonus (because the last place is 32-40th in 2007 and 38-40th in 2010) in those polls in which they are absent.

This isn't mathematically accurate but is a good aproximation to codex favourites average in the 2005-2019 period.

12 old games and 8 new games get those bonuses. Only Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age Origins made enough merits to dispute the 4 last places on the list (that go to 2019 top 4 new games with this method), but other honorable mentions are little further.
Every other game that rank in 1-2 top-38s only, but below 19th position are excluded of this list.

I'm sure this new list won't satisfy codexers (DS presence at all, Baldur's Gate 1/ KotOR 1 too much weight thanks to second half of 2000s, when Bioware fans invaded codex aparently, etc), but after I have seen the list, I think it reflects well, better thant other 5, codex general opinion over the years, limiting presentism and temporary trends but allowing the presence of those few best new games of this (fabulous optimistic) new Renaissance Era for crpgs. Still not my list, but is a good list.

List in the OP.

 

[luj1]

Awesome thread. Interesting it's always the same games near the top: Fallout 1-2, PST, Arcanum, BG2, Bloodlines, Deus Ex, Morrowind, etc.

 

[Tigranes]

Cool beans, many salutes for all the digging.

Some degree of old classics 'slipping' is only natural, in that they have many newer games to compete with (a few of which are actually very good). One suspects that the proportion of Codexers who have played, say, Daggerfall has decreased, but that's just a hunch that could be wildly wrong, and we probably don't have the data.

The 2005-2010 period will also have seen very few good RPGs enter into the fray to shake it up, so there was always going to be a jump when it came to 2014.

 

[Puukko]

I could see Daggerfall regaining positions in a future poll as the Unity port makes it more accessible.

 

[sullynathan]

who cares?

 

[HarveyBirdman]

Cool list, Ahmed.

(it actually is neat)

 

[Lilura]

Expect Jagged Alliance 2 to climb in the coming years.

 

[Steedless]

Good read. It's always interesting how some older games go through popularity spells later on.

 

[North Gibraltarian Dog]

interesting how some older games go through popularity spells later on.

Indeed. I think there are three main reasons:

1- Codex origins. A little community (not only smaller in absolute terms, but far less representative of 2002 or 2005 crpg players worldwide, "inclined" ones included) with a strong core of users who were mainly Black Isle fans. Some original codexers started to play in the 80s, but many others never played something older than Fallout or any non mainstream crpg from last 90s-first 2000s.

2- The arrival in the last 10 years of many new users, but oldfags of computer role playing gaming, with different experiences or tastes.

3- The arrival of many new users born in the 90s (or 2000s!) that discovered and love since then old rpg treasures. And many others young codexers that pretend to like old games for codex-cool-credit purposes. There are both, probably.

 

[V_K]

interesting how some older games go through popularity spells later on.

Indeed. I think there are three main reasons:

1- Codex origins. A little community (not only smaller in absolute terms, but far less representative of 2002 or 2005 crpg players worldwide, "inclined" ones included) with a strong core of users who were mainly Black Isle fans. Some original codexers started to play in the 80s, but many others never played something older than Fallout or any non mainstream crpg from last 90s-first 2000s.

2- The arrival in the last 10 years of many new users, but oldfags of computer role playing gaming, with different experiences or tastes.

3- The arrival of many new users born in the 90s (or 2000s!) that discovered and love since then old rpg treasures. And many others young codexers that pretend to like old games for codex-cool-credit purposes. There are both, probably.

I think it's simpler than that - you just have to look at poll dates: in 2010 (which marks the highest position for many of the older titles), the RPG drought was at full swing, so folks desperate to play something they haven't played, turned to older games. At the same time, in 2008 GOG - called "Good Old Games" at that point - launched, which increased accessibility and interest towards older titles.
2014, on the other hand, is the beginning of the Kickstarter/indie era, so the newer titles started to attract votes from the older ones.

 

[North Gibraltarian Dog]

Well maybe there is something of that V_K