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AI in future rpgs?

Beastro

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Why wait for the future when Oblivion already had Radiant AI

Radiant AI really shows how incompetent Bethesda's design philosophy is, at least how incongruous it is with how people actually play their games.

A good part of the enjoyment of TES games is the bugginess and seeing the NPCs go nuts doing crazy things, yet they dialed Radiant AI back a ton because it was doing just that. All they had to do was disable it for certain questlines and protect quest NPCs so the crazy AI wouldn't ruin them and then leave the day cycle AI free to do whatever it wants.

The sad thing is, it seems like Bethesda seriously tries to make serious, decently made RPGs and doesn't realize that their failures to do so are a source of so much fun people have with them.
 

Beastro

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I just keep thinking of STALKER. I remember being on the top floor of a big building like a derelict hospital or something. And then an alarm sounds, I am about to be attacked. So I run around the top floor hoping to find a good window to shoot the soldiers out of as they approach. But I run to a window and see nothing. Run to another window on the other side of the building. Still see nothing. Then I turn around to run to another window and there is a guy right in my face. Nearly piss myself. I shoot him and then more of them start coming up the stairs. They not only are coordinating an attack on me, but they can navigate through a building, up the stairs, etc.

I know I typed this before on codex but it deserves to be in this thread. The first Stalker game, I barely even began, there is a small squad of soldiers guarding an underpass. I am exploring nearby, I thought out of range, and then bullets start flying. They are now coming towards me, taking controlled fire shots at me. I run into a little deserted house and figure I will easily be able to shoot the dumb AI as it tries to barge through the front door. But as I am looking for some good cover, a grenade comes through the window... I run like mad out of the back door of the house as it blows up. The house is on a hill, so I run down the back side of the hill, and I can hear them still shooting through the windows of the house. Then I do a big loop around this hill, and I come up behind the squad, and they are still attacking the house. They think I am still in there, because they are AI, behave like real people, not scripted game enemies. As I come up behind them, one of them is going in the front door, 2 are behind him providing cover, and one has a grenade in his hand. I come up behind in a glorious flank attack and open fire. I think I killed one and injured one before they shot me dead... But that little low budget eurojank game from over a decade ago, has some of the best AI I've ever seen.

My big Stalker experience was going into the Agroprom underground and facing the mercs down there only to realize there's a Bloodsucker too. Running around in the dark I'm getting fired at first until they tag the sucker and it starts going for them. I find a corner and turn my light off as the area flashes with shots showing shadows of the mercs being taken down by the sucker one by one as the sucker does hit and runs. Mixes of shouts of orders, screams of the dying and incessant gun shots fill the area. Eventually, they're all dead and it's silent.

I sit thinking wondering if the sucker knows I'm there and aggroed me before the mercs got on it, so I'm sitting there juggling over whether I should turn my flashlight on or not, if I should move or let it come to me. I give in and turn the light on but stay put. The corners too wide so I can't cover it all and minutes go by until I see a shimmer right as it leaps at me. I panic and go rock and roll only for the sucker to drop dead to my amazement: fighting the mercs drained it's health and it was on its last legs by the time it came for me.

Was the most tense, scary experience in a game I've had, and it was not only emergent, but so much of the tension came from what didn't happen, the wait afterwards as I thought about if it was best to keep moving or let it come to me. Funny bit too was when I immediately told me buddy about it who hates scary games but forces himself to play them as some obligation. He was nearing that part in the game and stopped playing it, not wanting to face something similar like that.
 

anvi

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Isn't Radiant AI just like a glorified day/night cycle for NPCs? The way I understood it was that it gives some basic actions for an NPC instead of scripting every NPC in the game to start here, goes here, here, here, and then back home. Instead they can just make an NPC and say this is the home, this is where they work, and this is a place they go for fun. The character just wanders between each of the 2 or 3 areas on a loose schedule. Good enough I guess. It still bugs me the state of some things in gaming though.
 
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Beastro

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Isn't Radiant AI just like a glorified day/night cycle for NPCs? The way I understood it was that it gives some basic actions for an NPC instead of scripting every NPC in the game to start here, goes here, here, here, and then back home. Instead they can just make an NPC and say this is the home, this is where they work, and this is a place they go for fun. The character just wanders between each of the 2 or 3 areas on a loose schedule. Good enough I guess. It still bugs me the state of some things in gaming though.

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I heard originally they had it "turned on" fully and it caused too many quirks they felt ruined the game. Fights would be picked, npc breaking into others houses and other drama. After testing it they realized that wasn't what they wanted and so turned it down to a fraction of what it could do effectively just becoming a day/night cycle as you describe.

Now I can see why as a dev you'd do that, but that's not why people play TES games, especially Oblivion. There are reasons why these games still have videos being made about them and it has nothing to do with how well made they are:





 

anvi

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Ha goofy as hell. But it is a shame they just threw the whole thing away. That last one where they kill each other, that would be really great if it wasn't for the guard. The guard makes the whole thing look stupid, but remove him (or give him better AI too) and it would have been a bunch of primitive people fighting over something they found on the ground which is pretty realistic. It seems like they only need to develop that a bit more and it could make half the game for them without them even needing to do anything. Say you show up in a village and you see one NPC eating lunch and when he puts his chunk of bread down to sip his drink, another NPC steals the bread and runs off. Maybe the first guy murders the thief. You could now try to arrest him or kill him if he attacks you. It would give the player something to do that didn't even need to be set up by the devs. If it happened every in every village it would seem stupid but if they could design it properly it could create half of the game's content for the player. A problem seems to be that they want to give everything a voice acted line though. So if you made it more advanced so that an NPC could decide he wants to leave his crappy town and try to make a go of it in a bigger city, they couldn't just do it with text. Everything would need a spoken line of dialogue or the player wouldn't know what is going on. But it would make a far more interesting world to have NPCs with their own thoughts, not just scripted waypoints. They don't need infinite thoughts like a real person, just a dozen or something could make the world seem natural.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
I just keep thinking of STALKER. I remember being on the top floor of a big building like a derelict hospital or something. And then an alarm sounds, I am about to be attacked. So I run around the top floor hoping to find a good window to shoot the soldiers out of as they approach. But I run to a window and see nothing. Run to another window on the other side of the building. Still see nothing. Then I turn around to run to another window and there is a guy right in my face. Nearly piss myself. I shoot him and then more of them start coming up the stairs. They not only are coordinating an attack on me, but they can navigate through a building, up the stairs, etc.

I know I typed this before on codex but it deserves to be in this thread. The first Stalker game, I barely even began, there is a small squad of soldiers guarding an underpass. I am exploring nearby, I thought out of range, and then bullets start flying. They are now coming towards me, taking controlled fire shots at me. I run into a little deserted house and figure I will easily be able to shoot the dumb AI as it tries to barge through the front door. But as I am looking for some good cover, a grenade comes through the window... I run like mad out of the back door of the house as it blows up. The house is on a hill, so I run down the back side of the hill, and I can hear them still shooting through the windows of the house. Then I do a big loop around this hill, and I come up behind the squad, and they are still attacking the house. They think I am still in there, because they are AI, behave like real people, not scripted game enemies. As I come up behind them, one of them is going in the front door, 2 are behind him providing cover, and one has a grenade in his hand. I come up behind in a glorious flank attack and open fire. I think I killed one and injured one before they shot me dead... But that little low budget eurojank game from over a decade ago, has some of the best AI I've ever seen.
If you're interested in STALKER the sole AI programmer that worked on it has written papers about it
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/WS404OrkinJ.pdf
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/aiide05OrkinJ.pdf
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~jorkin/gdc2006_orkin_jeff_fear.pdf

More recently, he wrote a chapter in AI Pro which is available online for free
https://www.gameaipro.com/GameAIPro...gue_in_FEAR_The_Illusion_of_Communication.pdf

Which (humorously) actually touches a bit upon what you're discussing. A lot of the perceived AI in FEAR didn't actually exist but was simply players attributing things to it due to an emphasis on making it more human-like.
 

anvi

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I know this is too much text but I'll say it anyway. I pictured more advanced game worlds about 20 years ago and they never showed up. Hardware limitations is a bad excuse because smart devs can make almost anything work. But especially with RPGs, I have pictured more realistic worlds. The 'aggro range' is like 20 feet or something in most games, so enemies are completely blind to you unless you step within that tiny range. It is like all enemies are just hanging around in little groups, waiting to be approached by the player and engaged. This is Nintendo shit that was excusable in the 90s but isn't anymore. I want like to see that change so that characters and mobs in the game have a real visible distance like in real life. So if something sees you from miles away, it might come for you. Again, STALKER was not far off that. A squadron of soldiers could run down a hill and through some trees, into a big complex building, up several flights of stairs and then shoot you while the ones at the back provide covering fire. Why are there no RPGs that work like that?

I imagine RPG game worlds being bigger and more spread out to accommodate it. Similar to Dark Age of Camelot. So you are heading north and you will need to run several miles to reach where you want to be. You run up and down hills and plains, maybe there is a forest you will need to cut through. Then imagine a group of bandits see you from 1 mile away. You don't even know they are there, but they spot you on the horizon. So they start rushing towards you on an intercept course. Maybe they have horses or run speed spells so can catch you. And their attack should be at full range too, maybe the rangers and mages stay far back, like 500 feet away so they are just little figures on a distant hill. Then the warriors/rogues keep coming at you, and once the fight starts, arrows and magic missiles start flying at you from far away as the melee guys hack you. I have already played battles similar to that in a game, but it was an encounter you have to run into to start. Not one that can move and come after you. I have played games where enemies can spot you from far away and come charging at you too. I just haven't seen the two things put together.

A pack of wolves might be able to smell you from miles away too, and follow the scent and once they get a view of you, they should come for you. And enemies should be able to set up an ambush too. Again, I've run into an ambush in a game before where a lone bandit stands on a road and then as you approach a bunch of archers and mages step out from the trees. But if you can pack that up into a 'group' and then have the group able to wander and predict the path of a target, the game AI should be able to set up ambushes for you. In the Arma games a similar thing happens. On a 40 square mile map you can order a squadron of 50 AI soldiers to get in vehicles and come to you 20 miles away, along roads and cross country, over hills, weaving through fences and houses, they will make it to you. Yet a small pack of wolves in an RPG can't even hunt you down. Yet.

I really want to see this paired with more elaborate gameplay too. For example if you get into a battle with warriors hacking at you, rogue stabbing you in the back, and an enemy shaman and wizard are 800 feet away on a distant hill, raining poison and fire down on you. Again I've played stuff similar to this, and it is winnable because the magic you have is powerful. For example you can click a spell that instantly stuns everything around you, then you can put the warriors/rogue to sleep. Then you can target one of the distant enemies and use an ability/spell that teleports you directly behind them. I've played stuff similar to that, but just smaller distances, and again the enemies are mostly standing around rather than wandering. When I was reading about Darkfall, they talked about how a pack of orcs might wander the land looking for people to beat up. And it might come across a village of elves, and wipe out the entire village, and then claim the village for its own. So the world is truly dynamic, you find a village and have no idea who inhabits it. And I think they even had it so a pack of wandering wolves might come across a squad of wandering orcs and they would fight each other. I am still waiting for a game to work more like this. It seems like gamers and devs both forgot how to imagine game worlds that could resemble the real world. They are so conditioned into only thinking in terms of games. OMG U CANT DO DAT IT WOULD BE TO OP! OMG NO WAY A GROUP OF ENEMIES THAT CAN GO ANYWHERE? DAT WOULD BE WAY UNFAIR! People can only think in terms of WoW or Skyrim. There are buffalo or whatever in the Serengeti that migrate 100 miles south in the winter to avoid the snow. In 2019 we should have had games that think on a similar scale.

And any technical problem has a solution. For huge worlds it could be a mix of procedurally generated landscapes, but with pre-designed locations blended in. Made by a good dev you could have a world 100 times the size of Skyrim yet just as good looking if not better, and with many interesting locations. There could be entire regions that are hand crafted, dungeons, forests, deserts, etc, and have those areas joined together by procedural areas. Then improve the AI to wander in packs and hunt. I am bored being able to do anything and go anywhere at level 1. I want to start as a small fish in a huge world, with a lot of places I can't even think about going or I would get 1 shot by a puma, let alone a cyclops or giant. Give me something to work towards over the course of weeks or months. Huge distances in games also needn't be a chore, a Bard in Everquest could run as fast as a car at top speed in GTA. You can run over plains and deserts at 50 mph, it makes travelling fun and exciting and it makes distances no problem. You can also teleport to various wizard spires or druid rings in the world. A mixture of both and you could have huge worlds that are not too big to handle.

If all enemies have real visual range, as soon as you step foot in a dungeon the first room will attack you. That's fine. And you can't even peak your head in the dining room or maybe 50 hungry and angry kobolds will have their lunch interrupted and come straight for you. But in Everquest a Wizard had a spell called Eye of Zomm that was a magic eye that you could control and see out of, yet nobody could see it. So you could scout up ahead without danger, you could plan where to go next, see exactly what is up ahead and then kill the eye and you are back in your character. Then you use invisibility to go through that room and find another angle. An Enchanter or Bard could put 20 enemies to sleep in one go. A lot of characters had a harmony/pacify spell that would kind of daze a target, so you cast it on several enemies and then pull the eighth enemy and it will come at you alone while its buddies stay dazed. There is really no excuse to not have huge games, massive worlds, elaborate AI. I think we could have had it by now if gamers stopped making billionaires out of companies like Ubisoft, Bethesda, Rockstar, Activision, etc... They have massive budgets and spend it all on the exact same games we have played before, just updated graphics and a new skin, and they can sell 20 million copies. Millions of dollars spent on licencing 80s and 90s hit songs for the radio station. All that money could be spent on developing AI and you could have gangs robbing banks, thugs holding up gun stores, a serial killer on the loose, etc.. It could be just like a real city, but instead we get an xbox gamey version of a city which only looks like a city on the surface. The graphics make it look so real. The characters and AI make it look no better than a 2d game from 30 years ago. I think games will evolve into mind blowing things eventually. I think it will take indie game audiences to grow (and tech to improve) to the point that some small company can develop huge realistic game worlds with advanced AI. Once one of those outsells 20 million copies for a fraction of the GTA budget, things will change. But at this rate I don't see it happening in my lifetime. I think I'll have to suffer through watching GTA 12 and Elder Scrolls 15 being just as bland in 20 years as it is today.
 
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jewboy

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For anyone who doubts the value of more thoughtful enemy strategies try playing BG2 with and without SCS back to back. At least in that game having the enemies fight more like the player really made the game more fun. SCS is just scripting, a very large amount of it. In terms of conversation simulation with npcs not every conversation has to lead to quests or further the main plot. Whether using a realistic chatbot to play an NPC is actually desirable is another question. Not every improvement to AI has to be difficult or ambitious though. Even Bethesda's radiant system would probably have made the game more fun. It certainly could not have made it any worse. One thing that RPGs are missing that strategy games have started messing with is emergent behavior and events. Connectionist AI is by its very nature unpredictable and I think that can probably be made use of by clever game programmers in various ways. I want to try messing with it myself.
 

adrix89

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I think the right term for this is Coordination when talking about building better combat AI.

There is also the idea to make the NPC's and World more dynamic and sandbox, but the problem with that is you need to build the relevant systems to support it.

The problem with "Radiant AI" in Oblivion and whatnot is it does not have a Systems for the Economy or Farming or Business Management/Jobs or even Security and Crime so whatever the Radian AI can do is only at a shallow level
since it has no real systems behind to simulate consequences and considerations in which you feedback into its behavior to make them more reasonable and regulate it.

In other words it's all pretend make believe instead of actual mechanics so it's not surprising that the AI spazzes out like a petulant child.
Without the systems to simulate they cannot know what is an acceptable action.
 

Makabb

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Todd Howard will code Radiant AI 2.0 for Starfeeeeld and Edlan Scrooiis VIi

:kingcomrade:
 

SymbolicFrank

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Can we make an excellent AI? Certainly. Could it win without cheating? Every time, because it plays perfect.

But that isn't what anyone wants, even the grognards on this site. Let's take STALKER as the example. Yes, it is great that enemies act like a group and seem to coordinate. That is what we want, in a limited way. It feels realistic.

But, you will kill hundreds, or even thousands of enemies during your playthrough. And most of the time, you're outnumbered and probably outgunned. But you win anyway, because you're the most badass motherfucker! And you know how to play and outsmart them!

It would be really boring if you lost more than 90% of all fights. Or even 50% of them. And if you have that great AI that plays that perfect game, for each individual NPC, you have another problem. Because they would also all act in exactly the same way. So, you have to tone them down and make them a bit erratic. Every NPC in a different way.

You actually want each NPC to run its own AI, that doesn't think too far ahead. And have them communicate with others in a realistic way, with a hierarchy for the decision taking. With realistic reflexes and planning. They won't all react the moment they receive their orders that way, and they might do things like drop their weapons and run away, or hide on the toilet, or duck behind cover and start lobbing grenades in the direction where they saw you last, or try and find a position to snipe you.

And make a scale of the AI effectivity, for the difficulty settings. And no, there wouldn't be an "Impossible!" setting where the AI goes all-out. Because you would lose the first fight, again and again. And again. And again! Etc.

Even with a squad-based tactical game, it would be very hard. The only game I can think of where it might work is the original X-COM. Because you can lose missions, you often outnumber the enemy and recruits are abundant. But this is very rare.

So, considering all that, are you going to spend all the time and money on an AI you can use at most partial, or make some simple scripts that use RNG for the variation? Yes, the full AI would allow much tweaking, but what percentage of the players is going to notice?
 

jewboy

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Can we make an excellent AI? Certainly. Could it win without cheating? Every time, because it plays perfect.

You could make enemy tactical decisions dependent solely on connectionist learn-by-example AI which is never told exactly what to do, but just shown basically the sort of things it should do. The results would be unpredictable and inconsistent and unreliable. Based on its training it would make certain internal generalizations that are essentially unknowable and those unknown principles could guide its behavior in battle. It could also potentially try to learn/generalize based on player behavior on top of its initial training. I think non-deterministic, connectionist game AI will eventually be the default because it should just work without having to explicitly make a bunch of tactical scripts for each enemy with an rng for variation. I think you could even just pre-train the lower INT enemies less and maybe give them less effective learning/emulating algorithms to make them dumber and easier. Truly unpredictable and varied enemy AI along with INT based difficulty could make tactical combat more fun I think.
 

anvi

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I think AI a lot more complex than Stalker is a lot to ask for, I was only using that as an example of AI I want RPGs to try to match, or at least get closer to. Currently the enemies in RPGs barely do anything at all. As for AI being so good it would cause you to lose all the time, that doesn't always have to be the case, if the player has an advantage in terms of gear/spells. As a guy with a gun in a military FPS, against other guys with guns and great AI, then you are screwed. But add special abilities (like say Crysis with the super jump, super speed etc) and you can enjoy the good enemy AI while also kicking its ass.

My favorite game (Everquest) has great enemy AI, and they are tough as hell too... If I am playing a spell caster, an enemy that gets up to my face can kill me in just a few seconds. But you have such powerful spells, the key is to always be in control of the fight. So you have a spell called Root that holds an enemy in place. It can break randomly and direct damage can break it too, but damage over time wont. Also you have an ensnare ability which makes the mob run slowly. So you root it, get some distance, and then ensnare it, and now you can do some damage and if the root spell breaks, the mob will slowly walk towards you, so you have time to cast the root spell again before it reaches you. Forgetting to keep the spell topped up though... and you can easily die. But if you gitgud, you can win 99% of fights, even though the AI is smart.
 

SymbolicFrank

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Everquest is an interesting example. When I played that (long ago, before raiding), players routinely got banned for outsmarting the AI. Like, standing in places where the AI couldn't hit/target them. Crawling around enemies unnoticed. Or even simply DOTing, kiting and taunting in a smart way so the AI couldn't hit anyone. There was this team that found a creative way to beat the new, absolutely unbeatable endgame boss within hours. Yes, all immediately banned.

All of the players who did the above were accused of using exploits to win. They had to use approved tactics, stand out in the open and take all the damage like a man. That was the only allowed way to play the game.

Years later, after they added instancing and revised raiding, they made an experimental server where the AI played smart. So, instead of all piling up on the tank, they used the terrain to their advantage and took out the healers first, then the DPS and mopped up what was left. And the players lost all the time. "Unfair!" And it was, because now the AI played in the smart way that would get them banned if they did it.

But they did have two decades to balance everything and tweak all the scripts to make the gameplay feel "just right".
 

laclongquan

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What do you mean about AI in RPG?

If you mean characters that reflect your changes to the world in the game, that mean (a) devs must build in replies in their response arsenal. You cant expect they to invent reply out of thin air. And (b) the game can follow multi variables in game, most of them tiny. Say NPC 1073 need to to track variables of changes in quest location A-X with corresponding responses.

And (b) is interesting because it could drive the game's sophistication in data up the wall.

take Academagia. At the beginning, character only has some skill (variables) and quest available (variables). The save size is small and the game run smooth. At the end game character can have upto one hundred different skill (variable) with tens of quest entries (variables). The game size is ten or more times larger than at the beginning and the game run quite sluggishly.

It's obviously you need the game engine that can handle extremely bigger amount of variables than normal... so that the game can follow what tiny change you have made to the world (variables) in a game.

Also obviously the works in character designing go up several times.
 

Makabb

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Radiant AI really shows how incompetent Bethesda's design philosophy is

Atleast they are innovating.... I don't think before Oblivion there were ever unscripted AI talks in game.... no matter how ridiculous was the outcome, they tried it.
 

anvi

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Everquest is an interesting example. When I played that (long ago, before raiding), players routinely got banned for outsmarting the AI. Like, standing in places where the AI couldn't hit/target them.
That is not outsmarting the AI... that is exploiting the pathing mesh. The AI isn't outsmarted, it just can't see you so shuts down. Also Doting, kiting, taunting, etc, are all key ways of playing the game which everyone does. Nobody is banned for that. It was called "emergent gameplay" because some of it was not what the devs had in mind but instead of removing it from the game, they left it as a legit way to play. Some stuff they did remove if they thought it was a step too far, like being able to charm mobs and then feign death. And whatever they did to kill the raid boss was by exploiting a bug not outsmarting it. They don't ban customers paying a subscription for winning in a smart way. Stop making up stupid shit.

Years later, after they added instancing and revised raiding, they made an experimental server where the AI played smart. So, instead of all piling up on the tank, they used the terrain to their advantage and took out the healers first, then the DPS and mopped up what was left. And the players lost all the time. "Unfair!" And it was, because now the AI played in the smart way that would get them banned if they did it.
You have no clue what you are talking about. They had 5 huge expansions full of raid content before they added instanced GROUP content to the game in the 6th expansion. Nothing was 'revised', each expansion was different, each raid was different. They got better at designing content but the original raids were great too. Even the first raid in the game it never "piled up on the tank", the first raid in the game was a dragon that damaged everyone in the room and would attack anyone that caused the most aggro (through heals or damage or control spells). A tank could try to take the aggro with the taunt ability but it could easily fail. There was never an experimental server, all the servers are the same except for some PVP servers and a test server which was just upcoming content released early. The players never lost anything all the time, everything in the game was beaten once people figured out how to win. It was never 'unfair' either, everything was designed to be beatable, and it was. And the AI was never doing anything that wasn't specifically scripted by a dev.

But they did have two decades to balance everything and tweak all the scripts to make the gameplay feel "just right".
The game was just right at the start. The whole reason they keep releasing new "progression" servers is because so many people preferred the original game to how it is now. Basically everything you said in that post is bullshit. I am curious why you felt the need to do that? There is real stuff you could have talked about but instead you made up this shit about a game nobody here cares about except me who knows everything you said is wrong?
 
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SymbolicFrank

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Basically everything you said in that post is bullshit. I am curious why you felt the need to do that? There is real stuff you could have talked about but instead you made up this shit about a game nobody here cares about except me who knows everything you said is wrong?

Well, I only played about half a year and it is long ago, but that's how I remember it. I tried to google, but that's useless. The only thing I could find about the dragon was that some group was punished by Sony because they did something they shouldn't have done to the wardens. And I only remember the guild leader was a famous warrior. But I did research it at that time.

Anyway, getting banned for using exploits is really dumb, fix them instead. And when I was playing, that was the hot issue (next to nerfs, of course). And it was often not clear what Sony considered an exploit. It was basically everything you could consider "playing smart".

I don't know what exactly happened with the experimental AI, because I wasn't playing anymore, but I remember because that's what I would have done as well.

And I rarely google the things I post, so occasionally I post something that isn't correct. Sue me. Or put me on ignore if it bothers you.
 

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