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Quests and filler combat is what kills RPGs

Butter

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New Vegas made side quests relevant by tying them into the reputation system. Aside from that terrible quest Bleed Me Dry, they pretty much all feel worth doing.
 

DraQ

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What is this thing I keep reading here about BEING A ROLL PLAYA?

AS A ROLL PLAYA, my character would do this or do that. Are you all still twelve that you get so genuinely invested in the roleplaying aspect of videogames? If no, why the hell are you playing CRPGs and not bringing out your inner autist in full, in a tabletop group of like-minded individuals who like to "stay in character"?

I am sorry if this sounds jaded and cynical but after 30 years of playing games, I expect most everyone to be pretty fucking jaded about it all.
If you are not interested in the roleplaying aspect of most, if not all SP games, then you are just beeping and booping abstract bitmaps and polys presumably due to being easily amused.
That you still find this form of vacuous amusement worthwhile after 30 years begs the question: are you some kind of retard?
 
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Nifft Batuff

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Make quests emergent/implicit. I've written about it in another thread:

It's about presentation and player agency for me. The same sequence of event can be presented in very different ways. For example:

1) A shady tavern patron asks you to steal a mcguffin from the local merchant giving you the directions to the warehouse. You go to the warehouse and encounter a guard who tells you he'd turn a blind eye if you bring him a bottle of expensive liquor. You buy the liquor at the store, bring it to the guard, get the mcguffin and turn the quest to the shady man for a meager reward.

2) While visiting a tavern you overhear two shade men dicussing a plan to steal a powerful mcguffin. From a rumor, you learn that a local merchant has drastically increased the security on one of his warehouses. You scout the warehouse and learn that the only entrance is guarded by a half-giant. You ask around city about the half-giant and learn that he's impartial to expensive alcohol. You buy a bottle of rare liquor and bribe him with it, getting the mcguffin for yourself. Now you can keep it or sell to the local fence.

In principle, it's the same setup - buy liquor, bribe guard, get the mcguffin and turn it in for money. But while in the first case, you are told what to do and just have to follow the scrip without much thinking, the second option is made much more interesting by you having to investigate and come up with the solution on your own.
This us exactly how Ultima Underworld 1&2 worked. Also Thief.
 

V_K

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one of several alternative quests that each focus on different character builds and all meet at the same eventual outcome - e.g. that mcguffin might be an alternative to another mcguffin that is pretty much only obtained by a guns blazing approach not suitable to stealthy or talky characters).
Which is precisely how single-character RPGs should work in the first place.
 
Self-Ejected

MajorMace

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Less quests, more events.

Apparently I was not clear enough :
- Less demands from npcs who usually explain why you don't have a choice, or that you can refuse for a flat loss of xp/content/whatever.
- More situations where your char/party gets entangled in, requiring action.

Here's a fix for the issue of "why would my char help npcs but why would I not as a player".
 
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Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
one of several alternative quests that each focus on different character builds and all meet at the same eventual outcome - e.g. that mcguffin might be an alternative to another mcguffin that is pretty much only obtained by a guns blazing approach not suitable to stealthy or talky characters).
Which is precisely how single-character RPGs should work in the first place.

Yes, though note that with this approach the alternative to "1" you wrote above isn't just "2" by itself but a set of build-specific quests which include "2" (the number really depends on the variety of incompatible builds you can make). Again assuming the quest/quest-set is meant to be completed.

I think that is basically the reason we see "1" way more than "2+", at least outside smaller productions where adding an extra quest can be much easier (e.g. no voice acting, asset reuse, etc).
 

V_K

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one of several alternative quests that each focus on different character builds and all meet at the same eventual outcome - e.g. that mcguffin might be an alternative to another mcguffin that is pretty much only obtained by a guns blazing approach not suitable to stealthy or talky characters).
Which is precisely how single-character RPGs should work in the first place.

Yes, though note that with this approach the alternative to "1" you wrote above isn't just "2" by itself but a set of build-specific quests which include "2" (the number really depends on the variety of incompatible builds you can make). Again assuming the quest/quest-set is meant to be completed.

I think that is basically the reason we see "1" way more than "2+", at least outside smaller productions where adding an extra quest can be much easier (e.g. no voice acting, asset reuse, etc).
I agree, but I also think this reasoning is kinda flawed. If you have working systems in place - for stealth, rumor spreading etc. - you don't really need to script every quest variation by hand. You just place the mcguffin and the obstacles, and let the interactions between the character build and the systems flesh the journey out. It isn't really that much resource-heavy than scripted quests.
 

Sigourn

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So let's say you're making your dream RPG.

How do you fill your game with content? Quests are almost always:
- a chore you don't want to bother with
- as a roleplayer, your character would almost always be like "why me? you go fucking do it, I don't wanna", so there's no reason why he'd do random shit for random strangers
- have a mundane, boring premise, and you doing the quest in-game is usually mind numbingly easy, and if you don't stimulate the player, he'll just quit

Possibilities to fix them?
- Make the quest a puzzle. Ok, but you can't do it often, and puzzles are either too easy to solve, or you can't solve it at all. So that's a bad choice.
- Make it an assassination quest. That's fun, but you can't do it too many times.
- Anything else?

So the conclusion I must draw is that quests must go.

But what do you fill the game with, then? Filler combat is even more boring than quests. And there's nothing else.

A good quest is one I undertake for the feeling of adventure, not for the reward. The reward may as well no exist that I will take the quest anyhow if the quest gives off signs of being a good one. Fetch quests are almost always bad quests, but let's draw a comparison between two "fetch" quests:
  1. In Skyrim, you are asked to deliver a potion to a man inside Whiterun's castle. You walk there and deliver it, go back to the apothecary, and receive your measly reward for an uninspiring job well done.
  2. In New Vegas, you are asked to retrieve the corpse of a man murdered by Fiends. You walk there, talk to NCR military guarding the area, retrieve the body surrounded by booby traps and kill sum Fiends, and then carry the body back to the military who thank you for your service. Then return back to the quest giver (the man's widow) and receive your reward.
Maybe Skyrim offered a better reward. Maybe not. But there's no doubt which one was more entertaining and more memorable.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, Skyrim's quest (which is different than I imagined but essentially just as boring) does offer a much better reward. So you can already see how Bethesda approached its quests: boring as fuck, but the rewards help conceal just how shitty those quests are.
 
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Bester

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  • In Skyrim, you are asked to deliver a potion to a man inside Whiterun's castle. You walk there and deliver it, go back to the apothecary, and receive your measly reward for an uninspiring job well done.
  • In New Vegas, you are asked to retrieve the corpse of a man murdered by Fiends. You walk there, talk to NCR military guarding the area, retrieve the body surrounded by booby traps and kill sum Fiends, and then carry the body back to the military who thank you for your service. Then return back to the quest giver (the man's widow) and receive your reward.
I wouldn't do either.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Basically Bester wants to roleplayplay a NEET character who doesn't do any quests because he doesn't want to work for other people and is too depressed to really do anything. The promise of a reward is not enough to get his character to get off his ass and do something.
 

Bester

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Basically Bester wants to roleplayplay a NEET character who doesn't do any quests because he doesn't want to work for other people and is too depressed to really do anything. The promise of a reward is not enough to get his character to get off his ass and do something.
Basically JarlFrank is too ashamed to admit that he wrote boring fetch/kill quests for that game and it's too late to do anything, cause he got the boot and can't even make corrections anymore.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Basically Bester wants to roleplayplay a NEET character who doesn't do any quests because he doesn't want to work for other people and is too depressed to really do anything. The promise of a reward is not enough to get his character to get off his ass and do something.
Basically JarlFrank is too ashamed to admit that he wrote boring fetch/kill quests for that game and it's too late to do anything, cause he got the boot and can't even make corrections anymore.

Fake news, my quests are so innovative and unique, they will be the beginning of a new era of incline.

Sadly, I think they've taken out the quest where you have to steal the queen's well-worn aromatic boots :M
 

Bester

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Basically Bester wants to roleplayplay a NEET character who doesn't do any quests because he doesn't want to work for other people and is too depressed to really do anything. The promise of a reward is not enough to get his character to get off his ass and do something.
Basically JarlFrank is too ashamed to admit that he wrote boring fetch/kill quests for that game and it's too late to do anything, cause he got the boot and can't even make corrections anymore.

Fake news, my quests are so innovative and unique, they will be the beginning of a new era of incline.
I wonder what your tongue in cheek bravado really hides. Gives off vibes of you being very insecure about your writing.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Basically Bester wants to roleplayplay a NEET character who doesn't do any quests because he doesn't want to work for other people and is too depressed to really do anything. The promise of a reward is not enough to get his character to get off his ass and do something.
Basically JarlFrank is too ashamed to admit that he wrote boring fetch/kill quests for that game and it's too late to do anything, cause he got the boot and can't even make corrections anymore.

Fake news, my quests are so innovative and unique, they will be the beginning of a new era of incline.
I wonder what your tongue in cheek bravado really hides. Gives off vibes of you being very insecure about your writing.

Nah, I'm fine. I just love bantzing.

Sadly, I think they've taken out the quest where you have to steal the queen's well-worn aromatic boots
now... since it was cut can you share more?

But was it really cut? :M

And did it even exit in the first place? Who knows!
 

deuxhero

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So let's say you're making your dream RPG.

How do you fill your game with content? Quests are almost always:
- a chore you don't want to bother with
- as a roleplayer, your character would almost always be like "why me? you go fucking do it, I don't wanna", so there's no reason why he'd do random shit for random strangers
- have a mundane, boring premise, and you doing the quest in-game is usually mind numbingly easy, and if you don't stimulate the player, he'll just quit

Possibilities to fix them?
- Make the quest a puzzle. Ok, but you can't do it often, and puzzles are either too easy to solve, or you can't solve it at all. So that's a bad choice.
- Make it an assassination quest. That's fun, but you can't do it too many times.
- Anything else?

So the conclusion I must draw is that quests must go.

But what do you fill the game with, then? Filler combat is even more boring than quests. And there's nothing else.

A good quest is one I undertake for the feeling of adventure, not for the reward. The reward may as well no exist that I will take the quest anyhow if the quest gives off signs of being a good one. Fetch quests are almost always bad quests, but let's draw a comparison between two "fetch" quests:
  1. In Skyrim, you are asked to deliver a potion to a man inside Whiterun's castle. You walk there and deliver it, go back to the apothecary, and receive your measly reward for an uninspiring job well done.
  2. In New Vegas, you are asked to retrieve the corpse of a man murdered by Fiends. You walk there, talk to NCR military guarding the area, retrieve the body surrounded by booby traps and kill sum Fiends, and then carry the body back to the military who thank you for your service. Then return back to the quest giver (the man's widow) and receive your reward.
Maybe Skyrim offered a better reward. Maybe not. But there's no doubt which one was more entertaining and more memorable.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, Skyrim's quest (which is different than I imagined but essentially just as boring) does offer a much better reward. So you can already see how Bethesda approached its quests: boring as fuck, but the rewards help conceal just how shitty those quests are.

Thing is even the Skyrim quest could have been well, it's just Bethesda is incompetent. An important man in the castle shouldn't be someone you can just walk up to uninvited. Having to find a legitimate reason (find someone willing to give you a courier job to the castle, do a bounty and go to collect on it, find some artifact he's looking for, become famous enough the castle's owner invites you in on his own accord), concoct a seemingly a legitimate reason (since this is the court wizard, a high magic skill could provide an option as well as speech), or sneak in to meet the court wizard would have been an interesting little small quest. Overall it wouldn't take much to include or eat that much time in a playthrough, but would sell that the castle isn't just a giant common room while having multiple reasonable solutions.
 

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Thing is even the Skyrim quest could have been well, it's just Bethesda is incompetent. An important man in the castle shouldn't be someone you can just walk up to uninvited. Having to find a legitimate reason (find someone willing to give you a courier job to the castle, do a bounty and go to collect on it, find some artifact he's looking for, become famous enough the castle's owner invites you in on his own accord), concoct a seemingly a legitimate reason (since this is the court wizard, a high magic skill could provide an option as well as speech), or sneak in to meet the court wizard would have been an interesting little small quest. Overall it wouldn't take much to include or eat that much time in a playthrough, but would sell that the castle isn't just a giant common room while having multiple reasonable solutions.

This is also a good example of making quests that are interconnected/interact with each other.

Let's say there's a quest to assassinate the important dude in the castle. You can't just get into the castle to do the deed, though, you need a valid reason to be let inside.
So you take the quest to deliver something to him, along with a writ that gives you access to the castle for the purpose of delivering the object that minister expects.
Boom, you got your entry ticket into the castle. Now you just need to find a way to assassinate the guy without being immediately offed by the guards.

Quests become a lot more interesting when they interact with each other instead of being isolated standalone events that have no bearing on anything else.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
Yesterday a women in Elder Scrolls Arena asked me to go to the nearby temple to fetch an amulet for her and so I went and got the amulet and brought it right back to her just like she asked me to and I got eighty gold for it and I liked it.
 

Shinji

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Quests give something for the player to do, so they must not "go away".
Remember that above all, it's a role playing *game*, and not a complex simulation with infinite outcomes.
 

Bester

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Thing is even the Skyrim quest could have been well, it's just Bethesda is incompetent. An important man in the castle shouldn't be someone you can just walk up to uninvited. Having to find a legitimate reason (find someone willing to give you a courier job to the castle, do a bounty and go to collect on it, find some artifact he's looking for, become famous enough the castle's owner invites you in on his own accord), concoct a seemingly a legitimate reason (since this is the court wizard, a high magic skill could provide an option as well as speech), or sneak in to meet the court wizard would have been an interesting little small quest. Overall it wouldn't take much to include or eat that much time in a playthrough, but would sell that the castle isn't just a giant common room while having multiple reasonable solutions.

This is also a good example of making quests that are interconnected/interact with each other.

Let's say there's a quest to assassinate the important dude in the castle. You can't just get into the castle to do the deed, though, you need a valid reason to be let inside.
So you take the quest to deliver something to him, along with a writ that gives you access to the castle for the purpose of delivering the object that minister expects.
Boom, you got your entry ticket into the castle. Now you just need to find a way to assassinate the guy without being immediately offed by the guards.

Quests become a lot more interesting when they interact with each other instead of being isolated standalone events that have no bearing on anything else.
I'm not sure that quests being interconnected adds anything of value to the quests themselves.

For example, there's that epic quest in BG2 that you get from a Wish spell. It's basically a prank on you. Just when you think it's over, something else pops up, and you gotta do some more chores, and then some more, and more, and more etc. Did it make that quest great? No, I thought it made it funny, but taken at face value that quest was mentally exhausting.

Now ANOTHER quest I thought was great, but wasn't "interconnected" with other quests was De'Arnise Keep. Simple, yet fantastic. Free the keep. It didn't send you off on errands, it just pointed you to a dungeon entrance and inside was a great 3-4 hour adventure.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Basically Bester wants to roleplayplay a NEET character who doesn't do any quests because he doesn't want to work for other people and is too depressed to really do anything. The promise of a reward is not enough to get his character to get off his ass and do something.
This isn't the issue. The problem is how often game characters automatically assume you're competent/trustworthy enough to do a job or help them with something when they don't even know you. It doesn't make logical sense.
 

Shadenuat

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In Planescape, there is a quest about getting 3-4 items for some old hag in a hut and it's basically run around and take them and repeat 3-4 times.

One of the most memorable quests for me.

In Gothic, there are quests like collect turnips or mop floors. Oddly memorable as well.

So my answer is: aside from obvious mechanics/c&c; it's all about context, and good writing also helps a lot.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I agree, but I also think this reasoning is kinda flawed. If you have working systems in place - for stealth, rumor spreading etc. - you don't really need to script every quest variation by hand. You just place the mcguffin and the obstacles, and let the interactions between the character build and the systems flesh the journey out. It isn't really that much resource-heavy than scripted quests.

A systemic approach is certainly more interesting but to avoid having these quest variations you'd need to ensure that the systems involved in the quest apply for the builds possible with the character system - so with this example in mind, my "brute force" approach with a fighter-like character should be as valid as the stealthy and detective approach, meaning that there shouldn't be a crime-and-punishment system that penalizes my approach (though there can be an alert system that sends more combat towards my way - after all i am playing a figher character so i should be prepared for more fights) and instead the other approaches should be necessary for other character builds, not because the quest expects you to be stealthy (well, the designer can expect that in a meta level when designing the system interactions :-P) or listening to rumors, but because trying a combat approach would be impossible for these builds.

Usually games that go for a strong systemic approach do not use classes, but i wonder if classes would help with focusing on specific builds here.
 

V_K

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so with this example in mind, my "brute force" approach with a fighter-like character should be as valid as the stealthy and detective approach, meaning that there shouldn't be a crime-and-punishment system that penalizes my approach
In this particular case, I'd think more of an alternative route into the warehouse through the sewers infested with giant rats and spiders. But then again, I think it's ok to have non-critical content that wouldn't be accessible to certain builds. For plot-critical content, yes, you'll have to make sure that it's accessible to basic archetypes, and that suboptimal/hybrid builds can get through the obstacles by using consumables. Of course, you can also mix and match it a bit, like for example making some of the harder encounters in the sewers stealthable - once again, it's just the question of having your systems in place and designing levels around them.
Usually games that go for a strong systemic approach do not use classes, but i wonder if classes would help with focusing on specific builds here.
I like the "soft classing" system of Quest for Glory in that regards: you have to pick the main class that dictates your main approach, but you can also pick a couple of auxiliary skills from other classes, that open alternative branches. And learn-by-doing system more or less ensures that you won't build your character into a walking dead.
 

Nifft Batuff

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The whole concept of quests/subquests should be reformed from ground up. In modern games it has became so ridiculous. You have a checklist with hundred of entries that is basically equivalent to a tedious and jarring real life work.
 

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