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The best structure for an RPG?

Which one's the best?


  • Total voters
    102

JarlFrank

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There are different ways to structure an RPG, some of which are better than the others. But which one is the best? Let's find out!

1. The first structure would be the completely linear one. I'm not even going to illustrate it because of how simple it is. You start at point A, go to point B -> C -> D until you reach the end. There are no options for the player, all he can do is follow along with the story. There are also no or few sidequests. The only RPG subgenre this is even acceptable for is the pure dungeon crawler, because pure dungeon crawlers don't need much in the way of story and quests. Exploring a cool dungeon is enough.

2. One step above is the fake choice structure. Some modern games love to do this: give the player the illusion of choice without actually making the choice matter in any way.
kKYP5va.png

You get a choice, but the quests you follow are still the same, there's literally no gameplay difference. The only thing that's different is that instead of a willing hero, you're a reluctant hero.

3. Now we get to proper branches. A branching structure gives the player actual choices, and depending on what he chooses, the story will change, and different quests will become available while others become unavailable.
dBZipm9.png

It's a pretty solid structure. Depending on the amount of branches this can get pretty complex, and if you have a lot of branches in your game it's going to be hard work as a dev to keep all the different outcomes in mind. A game with a lot of branches, especially if you can hop between them, can be a lot of work to produce, but will offer a lot of replay value to the player. A good example is Age of Decadence.

4. Now we come to my personal favorite structure. The goal-based structure.
pOBp7QV.png

The player is given a goal early on, something he wants/has to do. In our hypothetical game example, the player crashlands on an alien fantasy planet with wizards and shit, and his goal is to find a new spaceship to get off the planet. How he gets it doesn't matter, and the steps he takes to reach that goal don't matter either. In the two example paths on the image, the player can either find out about a local wizard who owns a spaceship and is researching its tech. The player can either work for the wizard in order to receive the ship as a reward, offer the wizard a deal, or kill him and take the ship. Or the player can explore the world, find another ancient ship in an abandoned facility. He can either recruit someone who has enough technical expertise to repair the damaged old vessel, or find a technical manual in a different ruin which tells him how to repair it himself. Or maybe the player can find a way to repair his original crashed vessel.

In a goal-based game like this the sequence doesn't matter. If the player has played the game before and knows the wizard owns a working spaceship, he can just barge into the guy's tower, grab his keys, and steal the spaceship. Of course, he's unlikely to succeed as a low level character, but he can try. The player can also decide to go for any of the possible other solutions at any time. If he starts working for the wizard in the hopes of being given the spaceship as a reward but then decides that the wizard is actually an asshole and doesn't want to work for him anymore, the alternatives can be attempted.

Fallout is somewhat of an example for this. The player has to get the waterchip and kill the master. What he does in-between these major plot points doesn't matter. A new player will spend a lot of time exploring and hunting down clues, while a player who is replaying Fallout for the 7th time can just hightail it to Necropolis and nab the water chip.

So, which of these is your favorite RPG structure?
 

Tytus

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Branching structure tickles my willy. But sadly not many games use it.

The two "mainstream" games that come to my mind are Alpha Protocol and Witcher 2. I wish more games would be like that.
 

Bester

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1. The first structure would be the completely linear one. I'm not even going to illustrate it because of how simple it is. You start at point A, go to point B -> C -> D until you reach the end. There are no options for the player, all he can do is follow along with the story. There are also no or few sidequests. The only RPG subgenre this is even acceptable for is the pure dungeon crawler, because pure dungeon crawlers don't need much in the way of story and quests. Exploring a cool dungeon is enough.
Game of Thrones RPG did that and it was decent.
Basically an RPG that tells a story, kinda like a book. I'd play a game like that any day if the writing is good.

2. One step above is the fake choice structure. Some modern games love to do this: give the player the illusion of choice without actually making the choice matter in any way.
kKYP5va.png

You get a choice, but the quests you follow are still the same, there's literally no gameplay difference.
I would correct you that some OLDER games loved to do it, like BG2 where you "side with Bodhi" or "don't", it matters absolutely not. The two choices converge immediately once you board the ship.

And it's one of our favorite RPGs here.

4. Now we come to my personal favorite structure. The goal-based structure.
pOBp7QV.png
You make 80 hours worth of gameplay, player only sees 40. That's cool and all, but let's be realistic, we got a product to make here, we gotta pay the bills, etc.

In a world of unicorns, you can do that. In the real world, getting to choose between two cities at the beginning of W2 is all you can get. And I personally hated it when they did it, cause 1) I don't want to replay W2, it's not a chef d'oeuvre, and 2) I'll always pick the scientists over the sheeple no matter how many times I replay.

Fallout is somewhat of an example for this.
Disagree.
 

Bester

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3. Now we get to proper branches. A branching structure gives the player actual choices, and depending on what he chooses, the story will change, and different quests will become available while others become unavailable.
dBZipm9.png

It's a pretty solid structure. Depending on the amount of branches this can get pretty complex, and if you have a lot of branches in your game it's going to be hard work as a dev to keep all the different outcomes in mind. A game with a lot of branches, especially if you can hop between them, can be a lot of work to produce, but will offer a lot of replay value to the player. A good example is Age of Decadence.
Any other "good examples" of this? Cause AoD is the only one that comes to mind, which tells me it's not a popular scheme, if we can only recall one RPG doing it or pulling it off successfully.
 

jewboy

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It is possible to design a fun game using any of those structures. If you are designing a game just choose whichever you prefer. I think it is always important to focus on fun and whenever you add a feature you should be asking yourself if it makes the game more fun or less fun. Playtesting with actual test subjects is so important for this. Having said that either of the last two choices probably have more potential, but they may also take more work. More story branches to plan and write. There is always a compromise to be reached between C&C and a well written story and that is why a game story can really never be quite as interesting as a good novel. I tend to enjoy games more when they give me more freedom to choose what I want to do, but I also like compelling stories.
 

Dorateen

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Goal-based sounds like the developer gets the hell out of the way once the setting and backstory is established, and affords the greatest degree of player agency.

It also echos the adventure hook for Wizardry 7 & 8, so naturally it's the best.
 

Yosharian

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In BG2 there is a moment where you meet a warband accompanied by 'truth-seeing' mages. You have the option of getting irritated by the mages when they pronounce that your words are 'strong truth' (or otherwise), or just letting it slide.

Would you consider that an example of 'false choice'? Whether or not you get irritated at the mages, and even threaten them, nothing different actually happens.

For me is this is an example of old school RPG dialogue, where there are many options in dialogue but they still effectively lead to the same place and there isn't necessarily C&C involved. Yet I don't mind this kind of dialogue at all, because it gives me at least a chance to feel like I'm role-playing.

This kind of dialogue is dying out because it's prohibitively expensive to voice-over all these branching dialogue trees, even if they don't actually constitute C&C.

Slight tangent to the original point, but it's what always springs to mind when I see these kind of discussions. I miss old school RPG dialogue.

(Of course if dialogue is built with ACTUAL C&C then that's even better, but that's even more expensive)
 
Last edited:

barghwata

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Any other "good examples" of this? Cause AoD is the only one that comes to mind, which tells me it's not a popular scheme, if we can only recall one RPG doing it or pulling it off successfully.

Nah, in AoD you can't really call it a branching structure since you can probably only choose one branch in any given situation depending on your stats, the other branches will probably just lead to instant death.
Personally i prefer a fallout new vegas type structure, which is basically composed of several small branching structures linked to each other, this is because any quest in the game be it the main quest or a secondary quest can influence the outcome of the game and influence other quests as well.
 

Lurker47

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Goal-based is probably my favorite. As bad as the "fake choice" structure looks on paper, it's ridiculously easy for it to make logical sense and have at least SOME impact in the long-run.
 
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Basically an RPG that tells a story, kinda like a book. I'd play a game like that any day if the writing is good.
See, this the blight of RPGs nowadays. People mistaking their monitors with pages of a book. I'm not by any means against an RPG having a great story, but it must also have the gameplay, and the only design scheme that allows for proper Role Play (as should be the central tenet of an Arr Pee Gee) is goal-based design, backed by a robust ruleset and properly implemented mechanics (eg. stealth system, affinity system, barter etc).

The more freedom the player has at creating and expressing a role, the better that RPG will be mechanically. A good RPG will mimic reality in the "freedom of choice" sense. Now if a game manages to do all that AND have a great story, that's just the cream on top.
 

Tigranes

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Well, it's also often a question of scale. Sometimes you get to do 3 or 4 to fix a spaceship, but it turns out later that no matter what the spaceship gets shot down by space hookers. So was that just 2 (fake choice)?

Often it depends on how long & involved the 3/4 section is before it has to converge again. I often don't mind story-heavy games where you have to go through certain set outcomes (you faff around for a while, but your side loses the war, you faff around for a while, but space hookers kidnap your sex friend), if there's a lot of actual gameplay inbetween that has sufficient branching. I fapped to ending slides just like everybody else, but I'm also OK with games with clearly set endings & major story points if the actual moment to moment gameplay has variation.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In a goal-based game like this the sequence doesn't matter. If the player has played the game before and knows the wizard owns a working spaceship, he can just barge into the guy's tower, grab his keys, and steal the spaceship. Of course, he's unlikely to succeed as a low level character, but he can try. The player can also decide to go for any of the possible other solutions at any time. If he starts working for the wizard in the hopes of being given the spaceship as a reward but then decides that the wizard is actually an asshole and doesn't want to work for him anymore, the alternatives can be attempted
I like nothing better than seeing the wealth of options available to solve any problem, and ignoring all of them in favor of direct combat.
 

Tigranes

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In a goal-based game like this the sequence doesn't matter. If the player has played the game before and knows the wizard owns a working spaceship, he can just barge into the guy's tower, grab his keys, and steal the spaceship. Of course, he's unlikely to succeed as a low level character, but he can try. The player can also decide to go for any of the possible other solutions at any time. If he starts working for the wizard in the hopes of being given the spaceship as a reward but then decides that the wizard is actually an asshole and doesn't want to work for him anymore, the alternatives can be attempted
I like nothing better than seeing the wealth of options available to solve any problem, and ignoring all of them in favor of direct combat.

ERYFKRAD
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RNGsus

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Goal and Linear. In a linear game, I would look to party composition, good dungeons, and itemization to keep the gameplay fresh.
 

Wunderbar

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A mix of 2, 3 and 4. Example: Fallout New Vegas.

2) doesn't matter which side you pick, the game will end with an epic battle at Hoover dam;
3) you can make a big choice on which side to support, and there are multiple smaller choices inside questlines;
4) at the beginning of the game your goal is to find Benny and platinum chip. You can investigate things, visit every town on your way and ask people about that guy in a checkered suit, or you can just go straight to the Strip since it makes sense for Benny to be there. You can then plot with other Tops member to eliminate him, or you can just kill him outright, or you can seduce him if you're a woman, or you can accidentally fuck up and let him go, etc etc.
 

Citizen

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Sandboxy murderhobo simulator. Plots are overrated

I just enjoy the idea of beating the shit out of mooks and getting their gunz to shoot more mooks. Also a good tactical combat
 

Kliwer

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In my opinion complex branching structure is the best (goal-based structure lead mostly to shallow sandbox). The good example of this approach is Dragon Age: Origins, which I value more then avarage Codexer. Your choice of protagonist change gameplay a bit, you also have some cool branches during all main quests.

The other thing which I find important is story itself. It should be open enough to support different main characters, from dwarwen berserker to clever thief. For example in BG you really do not feel like dwarf when you choose this race for your protagonist. The better example is Arcanum - raca/class of your hero does not matter in main quest, but it is important during exploration and is noticed in side-qeusts.

I think that cRPG designers should develope DA:O approach, with those "beggenings". It is something that make the story unique. Another quite good example is Drakensang: River of Time.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In a goal-based game like this the sequence doesn't matter. If the player has played the game before and knows the wizard owns a working spaceship, he can just barge into the guy's tower, grab his keys, and steal the spaceship. Of course, he's unlikely to succeed as a low level character, but he can try. The player can also decide to go for any of the possible other solutions at any time. If he starts working for the wizard in the hopes of being given the spaceship as a reward but then decides that the wizard is actually an asshole and doesn't want to work for him anymore, the alternatives can be attempted
I like nothing better than seeing the wealth of options available to solve any problem, and ignoring all of them in favor of direct combat.

ERYFKRAD
Barbarian
Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate open ended problem solving, especially if it is reflected in combat.
But if I haven't had a decent scrap, it feels like I took the easy way out.
 

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