The Outer Worlds Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

I don't recall any pen & paper RPG where my GM said "Your lockpick skill is low, so we have to sit here in silence for 5 minutes if you want to try."

Instead he's likely to say: you lockpick skill is low, it takes you twenty minute instead of five to open the lock.

In Dungeons and Dragons when you're not in combat, you Take 20 as opposed to rolling for success, which means either you pick the lock or you can't.

Regarding the bolded, has information about Fenstermaker's involvement with the project ever been compiled in a single place? I seem to remember seeing something (maybe a post by him here) about the decision-making process around the narrative in PoE. It's a bit foggy for me now.

Just Avellone's posts about how he chased John Gonzalez out of the company, how the other owners wouldn't even bother to hire a writer unless Fenstermaker could get along with them, and an anecdote Fairfax shared from someone about how he saw how many words Avellone had already written for New Vegas and cry-laughed for an extended period of time.

Beneath a Starless Sky has details about how Pillars' plots came together https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...illars-of-eternity.124242/page-3#post-5946980

 

[ERYFKRAD]

When you listen to the writers on The Outer Worlds talk about working for Boyarsky, it’s like they’ve never had a competent boss before. “OMG, Leonard actually gave us direction, he directed us to consume lots of high quality media so that we could understand his vision, he and Tim made us keep revising until we got the tone they were shooting for.”

Honestly, getting a good boss after having survived a bad one for a few years reminds you that work can actually be fun

Oh yeah.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

an anecdote Fairfax shared from someone about how he saw how many words Avellone had already written for New Vegas and cry-laughed for an extended period of time.

Wait which post was this?

 

[AwesomeButton]

Do they have shit writers and designers, though? I haven’t seen many complaints about Deadfire’s level design, some of which was excellent.

As for the writing, I contend that Obsidian’s had badly led writers since MCA left (and really since he was sidelined on Pillars). These people aren’t just writing dialogue in a vacuum. In POE, they were taking their cue from Sawyer and Fenstermaker, who had two totally different visions for what the game should be. Also, Fenstermaker apparently has a habit of antagonizing anyone who’s more talented than he is, which is not a great quality in your narrative lead. Good fucking riddance.

In Deadfire, they were taking their cue from a distracted Sawyer and then Carrie Patel, who had no business being narrative co-lead given that (IIRC) it was only her second game. Frankly, Sawyer had no business being narrative co-lead on these games either. He’d never done it before and it’s really not his strong suit.

When you listen to the writers on The Outer Worlds talk about working for Boyarsky, it’s like they’ve never had a competent boss before. “OMG, Leonard actually gave us direction, he told us to consume lots of high quality media so that we could understand his vision, he and Tim made us keep revising until we got the tone they were shooting for.” I mean, shit, nobody was doing that on POE or Deadfire or Tyranny*?

Maybe Starks, Patel, Dollarhyde, Kirsch and whoever else (I think I’m missing one) are incapable of doing good work, but it sure seems like no one at Obsidian even tried to get them to do consistently good work until Boyarsky came along.



*I thought the writing in Tyranny was a lot more compelling than in POE or Deadfire. It had a consistent tone that fit the story they were trying to tell. There was a lot of text, but they did a much better job of making me want to read it.

Who was narrative lead on the last RPG with good writing that you played?

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

PoE has a good enough narrative. Most people don't know about it because they don't like the prose-like delivery and fail to and therefore equate their ignorance with the game's narrative being bad. But then again, most people are retards.

*I thought the writing in Tyranny was a lot more compelling than in POE or Deadfire. It had a consistent tone that fit the story they were trying to tell. There was a lot of text, but they did a much better job of making me want to read it.

That's how we know you are American and your appreciation of "writing" is suited to the soap-opera level you are accustomed to.

 

[Terenty]

PoE has a good enough narrative. Most people don't know about it because they don't like the prose-like delivery and fail to and therefore equate their ignorance with the game's narrative being bad. But then again, most people are retards.

If you hide your narrative behind walls of excessive lore dumps and exposition you are doing something wrong

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

If you hide your narrative behind walls of excessive lore dumps and exposition you are doing something wrong

Yeah you people bitched and moaned so much that they got rid of the prose in the sequel. Well, there's nothing to do about it. The western RPG subgenre will always suffer due to being designed for western sensibilities.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

If you hide your narrative behind walls of excessive lore dumps and exposition you are doing something wrong

Yeah you people bitched and moaned so much that they got rid of the prose in the sequel. Well, there's nothing to do about it. The western RPG subgenre will always suffer due to being designed for western sensibilities.

Deadfire was insanely better to read and enjoy without the prose and would better without Gods. The Faction are pretty well made in Deadfire and game would greatly benefit of a story that all about them, at least so far from what i played.. Fuck the natives and their shitty castes system tho

Outer worlds don't have any trace of Gods on it so .... It's a clear improvement.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Deadfire was insanely better to read and enjoy without the prose and would better without Gods.

Oh yeah i bet crime and punishment would've been so much better without the whole axe and murder bit.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Who was narrative lead on the last RPG with good writing that you played?

Are we talking genuinely good writing or good for an RPG writing? Either way, it’s an Eastern European.

As for the last American AAA CRPG with really good writing, the narrative lead was John Gonzalez.

I can forgive a lot in terms of style if the content is good. I actually think POE had pretty strong prose, but it was wasted on tepid storytelling. Three beginnings and zero hooks! The text shouldn’t pause the action, it should be part of the action.

Deadfire was insanely better to read and enjoy without the prose and would better without Gods.

Oh yeah i bet crime and punishment would've been so much better without the whole axe and murder bit.

Don’t be obtuse. Sawyer himself admitted that they fucked up by focusing the main quest on the gods when the bulk of the game was about political wrangling in the archipelago.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Don’t be obtuse. Sawyer himself admitted that they fucked up by focusing the main quest on the gods when the bulk of the game was about political wrangling in the archipelago.

I'm not being obtuse, you have just decided to ignore the cornerstone of the whole story, which is the mortal struggle against divine tyranny. Either that or you didn't pay any attention and so you missed the point. PoE's story is brilliant top to bottom. The first game is actually much more superior to the sequel. If Obsidian messed up somewhere, is not paying even more attention to the divinity aspect of the sequel in favor of the factions.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Don’t be obtuse. Sawyer himself admitted that they fucked up by focusing the main quest on the gods when the bulk of the game was about political wrangling in the archipelago.

I'm not being obtuse, you have just decided to ignore the cornerstone of the whole story, which is the mortal struggle against divine tyranny. Either that or you didn't pay any attention and so you missed the point. PoE's story is brilliant top to bottom. The first game is actually much more superior to the sequel. If Obsidian messed up somewhere, is not paying even more attention to the divinity aspect of the sequel in favor of the factions.

You must live in the alternate universe where Obsidian let George Ziets write Pillars.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

You must live in the alternate universe where Obsidian let George Ziets write Pillars.

Facepalm indeed.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

Don’t be obtuse. Sawyer himself admitted that they fucked up by focusing the main quest on the gods when the bulk of the game was about political wrangling in the archipelago.

I'm not being obtuse, you have just decided to ignore the cornerstone of the whole story, which is the mortal struggle against divine tyranny. Either that or you didn't pay any attention and so you missed the point. PoE's story is brilliant top to bottom. The first game is actually much more superior to the sequel. If Obsidian messed up somewhere, is not paying even more attention to the divinity aspect of the sequel in favor of the factions.

Their mistake was focus on Gods, even Mister Josh said it , while the best part of their game, Deadfire , was the faction system. If the first game was the same but the second was like The God want prove that humanity can actually walk on their own two feets and decide their fate alone , your the watcher so they make you humanity voice due your pass accomplishments , you need prove to them that they're wrong or actually that they're right or something like this , it would be much much better than chase eothas (i playing the game and honestly , it's difficulty to have a reason to not just go for Eothas) . It would the game's biggest problem that's sense of urgency when actually your fucking around the island.

Maybe it's a shitty a idea , but it actually ties both faction and gods..

 

[Zombra]

I don't recall any pen & paper RPG where my GM said "Your lockpick skill is low, so we have to sit here in silence for 5 minutes if you want to try."

Instead he's likely to say: you lockpick skill is low, it takes you twenty minute instead of five to open the lock.

Of course, but that's not a time sink because either way the actual conversation takes two seconds. HarveyBirdman was suggesting that it should take 20 real time minutes.

 

[AwesomeButton]

This sounds like a good story to tell in a book, but then it was badly adapted to a videogame.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

it would be much much better than chase eothas. It would the game's biggest problem that's sense of urgency when actually your fucking around the island.

The only correct answer to the story of Deadfire is completely annihilating the gods and ending their tyranny over mortals, because they are fake gods. They are not the absolute power as god is conceptualized to be in real world. The struggle they portrayed in Deadfire was imo completely nonsensical and stupid after the revelation in the first game that the gods are phony constructs made by humans. IMO how they should've branched the story is like this:

Either the watcher,
1. Completely destroys the gods - AKA Prophetic liberator, destroyer of idols ala Moses.
2. Rules over them - AKA Strict materialist industrialist
3. Gets in cahoots with them as a partner - Theocratic Sovereign

They came up with this excellent setup in the first game which could've been developed into a fantastic mirror of mankind's ascendance out of the dark ages, but they completely lost the thread in Deadfire. They chose to operate within the pantheon of the gods as if they are absolute powers (which they really are not as much as they seem, since their powers are by design, finite), when instead they should have superseded it with the watcher raising above the gods. It's a game i play for the RTwP, as opposed to the first game which really excites my imagination.

They could've tie in the factions in nicely too, as one could work to achieve one of those endings. For example, the scientific Vailians could've helped ruling over the gods through scientific mastery - which they even endeavor to in the game.

 

[Ibn Sina]

The only thing I Like about this game is that it will have no romances. Which means

I have bad feelings about this, it's risky to say but Greedfall can outmatch this game.

I laughed a lot in this comment. Anyways,

The bad thing about this game is that there are still gaps in the mini-games. An event like Lockpicking 4/5 is the best example of this. Even if the door was locked, we should have had a chance to try. They're still not mechanically bethesda. FNW still has better mechanics. Unreal engine unfortunately not enough. (At least for now) However, they will be the best ARPG ever. Games like Cyberpunk 2077,Witcher or greedfall have a linear structure. They only guide you unless you have mechanically dialog systems. So you can't be free. Let's see how free we will be in this game. (half open world) What about insect level? Hopefully less -)

We couldn't see the summary (stats) and the perks. We only saw the skills in detail. Every single increase in skills has been like skyrim. (novice-master - 1/5 - LVL 50 before and after development status is different.) It's nice to have different effects. Clean, simple and convenient. "Quests" and "Companions" in the game menu have been removed. (These were in the previous version) It's not clear where he's gonna be right now. The effect of visual improvement is noticeable. They have dialogue systems. Under normal circumstances, this game should not be bad. (At least with these mechanics) The game appeals to mainstream. If the game is full (quests, live life..etc.), it may even be the game of the year.

I dont think the companion screen was removed, its only appers when you have a companion and this was before you get Parvati.

I told you it was removed from the menu. Not from the game. There's an input key for sure. -)
All companion;

Wow... What the hell... This has to be the ugliest selection of people I have ever seen. Who the hell wants to travel with and talk to ugly people in real life? Extremely hideous. Just looking at them makes me not want to try the game..

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Wow... What the hell... This has to be the ugliest selection of people I have ever seen. Who the hell wants to travel with and talk to ugly people in real life? Extremely hideous. Just looking at them makes me not want to try the game..

Well the game promises that you can just shoot them in the face, so consider TOW your own minority-cleansing simulator and you should be good to go.

 

[Reinhardt]

Minigames can be good, just look at Yakuza series for example but art of making them good is lost in the west.

 

[Zombra]

lol. Any of you guys want to post your chiseled good looks, go ahead, I'm sure you all look like Fabio. Weird for people to expect that video game characters should all be supermodels.

 

[Quillon]

Who is Fabio?

 

[Quillon]

another supremely talented individual trying out the game...

also that player character looks like a woman with beard wtf

...but the plot thickens; tobson and adalaide were a couple and she left after her son died hmn, prolly related to workplace safety issues I guess

 

[Tigranes]

So we can conclude by Obsidian's trajectory, Outer Worlds will be likely modestly bugfree, but kinda boring and mediocre

Probably.

You wonder what Pillars would look like if it had been Obsidian's first game, Arcanum-style - or what it would look like if it were made 5 years later instead, when Microsoft has sucked it deep into its blobular mass and spit out Feargus's pelvic bones with a derisive burp.

You mean if MCA had been project lead instead of Sawyer? Yeah, pretty fucking different.

But, I’ve gotta say, the biggest problems with POE 1&2 seem to have two causes: either management by committee (how they settled on Fenstermaker’s less than stellar main story), or Sawyer’s bizarre stylistic preferences (he loves boring, humdrum shit and didn’t have much interest in making this kind of game). Tyranny has plenty of issues, from the lazy combat to the fact that it’s only 75% finished, but a lot of that is because they raided the budget to pay for POE.

If you look at what’s wrong with Tyranny and what’s wrong with POE 1/2, I don’t think there’s much overlap. Because Tyranny is Sawyer free.

Maybe I’m being fabulously optimistic, but in my experience good leadership makes a huge difference. The Outer Worlds won’t have Tyranny’s budget issues, or POE 1/2’s leadership issues. Until they break my heart, I will keep insisting that Tim and Leonard deserve the benefit of the doubt. Or at the very least, they deserve more trust than Sawyer or whoever was the lead on Tyranny (Matt McLean?).

My problem is that Tyranny has a lot of problems, and is ultimately a worse game than POE1/2. We'll never know how it might have been if Tyranny was the mainline project and not a random assets spinoff, of course, but I wasn't impressed by its totally broken "mash buttons to win in POTD" combat, or how it totally lost its unique identity after Act 1. So to me, pegging Obsidian's recent failures on Sawyer is just as speculative as hoping Cain & Boyarsky still have the magic.

More generally, though, I certainly agree that Obsidian's recent problems with writing is not so much with Writer A and Writer B not having enough levels in Writing, and far more to do with project/writer management. POE1/2 clearly had problems with overambitious / poorly threaded themes, while Tyranny, perhaps due to budget/scope, perhaps something else, couldn't execute its very clear vision.

 

[Fairfax]

In Dungeons and Dragons when you're not in combat, you Take 20 as opposed to rolling for success, which means either you pick the lock or you can't.

Take 20 is a 3E rule. 4E only has Take 10, and 5E doesn't have either rule.

an anecdote Fairfax shared from someone about how he saw how many words Avellone had already written for New Vegas and cry-laughed for an extended period of time.

Wait which post was this?

J.R. Vosovic shares an amusing story related to MCA:

Early on, I was sharing an office with Eric Fenstermaker. After a week or two of writing he checked in some dialogue and was super happy with it - and he had written several hundred lines. (At that point I had only written about a dozen placeholders).

A bit later he starts swearing and sort of fake-sad-crying-laughing and is looking pretty defeated. Being the glowing tower of empathy that I am, I told him to shut the f up. But also inquired why he was now a broken shell of a man.

He told me he checked in a couple hundred lines for a character, and then checked Chris Avellone's character for comparison.

... Over 10,000 lines. Legend status confirmed

So that experience really opened my eyes to the metrics required to reach exalted levels of awesome. Here I was with 10-20 lines. Fenster who was one of our best, with hundreds. Then Chris...amazing

It was long after that I read a great book called War of Art. Check it out. To summarize: work a 10-6 day every day and put in the work. It will come.