RTWP and TB inherent problems (and NPC companions)

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

First step to prevent most of the "boredom" in a turn based game: make it snappy, short, quick to the point. Not just in the sense that ideally the AI shouldn't waste a lot of time thinking and executing moves, but also on the player side: quick, clean animations that respond immediately to your commands.
Ideally most moves and animations shouldn't take more than a fraction of a second. And even when it's some super-elaborate choreographed final supermove that SHOULD take five seconds because it's a big deal... Make them two at most and shut the fuck up.

EDIT and clarification - Please note that I'm not talking of "skipping animations" or going in fast forward, which are both things that can work as options but can also compromise the visual appeal of the battle. I'm specifically talking of an ideal scenario where the animations are pretty enough but quick and short by default.

 

[octavius]

For RTWP:

Let's take the example of Baldur's Gate.

Option 1: Make AI overpowered, but stupid - it attacks only the closest target.

Result: it gets boring after a while, same solutions work every time, filler combat becomes tedious.

---------------------

Option 2: Make AI "Smart". It always goes for your mages and the weakest targets.

In my experience this last part only applies to some areas or some monster types in IWD 2. Don't know about newer games, though.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

its not about playing football rpg manager. AI is to help you micro manage less, especially in shitty fights.
Its about not using limited resources in trash combat, keeping/entering specific stance as needed, self healing, running away from aproaching enemies if squishy.
Simple tasks. You are still there, overruling as needed. Idea is to have way less input in trash combat. Once its boss fight then yeah - disable ai and execute perfectly.

Completely unnecessary. The vast, vast majority of trash combat in these games can be solved by select all -> left click. All you've done is added the extra step in the other fights of having to remember to disable the AI.

Also the correct solution to any problem regarding trash combat is to have less of it. It's certainly not to spend lots of development resources on AI behavior to make it more bearable.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Option 2: Make AI "Smart". It always goes for your mages and the weakest targets.

Result: It's a pain in the ass to deal with, your mages die all the time, warriors become useless because mages are tanking, it looks weird. You gotta buff mages with a ton of shit or make them stay way way back. It's super NOT FUN.

Disagree. Mages should be standing away from the combat. They're wearing a fucking dress.

Easy solution for the AI going straight for the mages: add stuff like flanking attacks so if they run past your fighters and expose their backs to them, the fighters can get easy crits.

Absolute nonsense that it solves anything. Unless all your mobs die after getting hit 1 time. And then there are archers.

The only solution is to NOT make such AI.

Mages aren't supposed to be able to take a lot of damage. AI that exploits their weakness instead of letting them be complete gods is a good thing. Hope that clears things up.

 

[Valky]

The inherent problem with RTWP is that it is not turn based.

 

[Sensuki]

For RTWP:

Let's take the example of Baldur's Gate.

Option 1: Make AI overpowered, but stupid - it attacks only the closest target.

Result: it gets boring after a while, same solutions work every time, filler combat becomes tedious.

---------------------

Option 2: Make AI "Smart". It always goes for your mages and the weakest targets.

Result: It's a pain in the ass to deal with, your mages die all the time, warriors become useless because mages are tanking, it looks weird. You gotta buff mages with a ton of shit or make them stay way way back. It's super NOT FUN.

Any other ideas?

AI Targeting in IWD:HoW is pretty nice, it's more complex than closest enemy but less droll than "attack lowest HP / lowest AC". BG1 also has some clauses to attack worst armor class, but it seems that it only works within a certain range/distance - so if you keep your mages etc back they are usually fine.

I think there's some interesting things that could be done with AI targeting, such as looking at events/status - eg who is casting/channeling, who is running, 'team'-based actions where enemies perform actions based on their allies actions or events, eg mage is channeling, attack guys that are targeting mage.

It's probably more expensive to implement this complexity than it is to implement the very blunt options you listed, but I think for the right balance of hard and fun, a middle ground needs to be found between those two options. I think any soluton that promotes dynamic reactions in combat as opposed to pre-meditative/strategic stuff, is a good thing.

For TB:

- Can't have Companions in game, because then every fight becomes the battle of Waterloo.
- Could make Companions act as AI to alleviate the problem, but then some fights turn extremely stupid where you're dedicating all your efforts to protecting a stupid companion that can't protect itself, because it's AI. That's not a solution.

If party-based TB combat is long, then health/damage/length of status effects and whatnot need to be looked at.

I think TB always has the potential to take a long time if you do things like retreat or hide, or the enemy (as in Expeditions Viking) doesn't attack you in melee really, unless you push them.

If you want to keep combat shorter, the weight of actions needs to be heavier - good moves should be rewarded and bad moves punished more. This needs to be incorporated into the design as well as the AI.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

The CODEX minority's problem with RTWP is that it is not turn based.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Turn-based and real-time can both result in effective combat systems, provided that they are chosen with consideration to the other game mechanics.

RtwP combat combines turn-based and real-time in order to possess the worst aspects of both.

 

[Q]

Turn-based is always better for indirect character control. Especially for a party. RTwP is inherently a mess in a party-based game, so you need this pause mechanic.
Real time with one character and direct character control can be a nice action game (Witcher3, Diablo, Dark Souls). It can even have AI companions.
But if we want party-based RPG - turn-based mode is superior.

For me, I loved D:OS long strategic fights. It's the best part of the game.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Scriptable AI is the best option.

I'm sure game developers are "talented" programmers, but nothing can compete with the hivemind of spergs on the internet.

Let the spergs control the AI interactions and people will come up with great scripts.

I've seen this on MMO's for multiple account bots. People develop the automated scripts and share them around, and its like a hivemind trying to improve them.

 

[Reinhardt]

the AI will never be able to execute your strategy as well as you can

AI is smarter than most modern rpg games players.

 

[Ranarama]

Any other ideas?

If that's the sum total of your creativity, then I feel sad for you.

First off, Wizard tanks can make sense. Why not put all the damage on the guy with the blue glowing shield that blocks all the damage, or the iron skin? Or that becomes incorporeal, or does damage back when hit, or surrounded.

Second, you've ignored Crowd Control, which can be put on front line fighters. Engagement mechanics, AI that wants to avoid attacks of opportunity or has taunt mechanics. All those are possibilities. Or simply blocking out areas with summoned walls, summoned creatures, areas that do damage and the AI want to avoid, etc. etc.

Thirdly, you're assuming all AI needs to be the same. Why not have role based AIs? Idiot charge AIs for animals, types that hunt down casters, and others that engage fighters.


You invented a problem, and now you want to complain about it. Why do we care?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Turn Based for games where you control multiple PC's, and don't be a bitch and make the party members AI controlled.

Real Time for games where you control only a single PC.

Real Time with Pause belongs in the garbage.

Got it?

 

[Daidre]

Turn Based for games where you control multiple PC's, and don't be a bitch and make the party members AI controlled.

Why even have party with party members controlled by AI?
Game degenerates into coding exercise when you can configure it and boring spectacle of two rock-stupid AI trying to kill each other (and PC) when you are not. Who in the right mind call this "gameplay"?

PS Fallout and Arcanum system with AI controlled party members is pure trash. Only playable solo.

 

[Sergiu64]

For RTWP:

Let's take the example of Baldur's Gate.

Option 1: Make AI overpowered, but stupid - it attacks only the closest target.

Result: it gets boring after a while, same solutions work every time, filler combat becomes tedious.

---------------------

Option 2: Make AI "Smart". It always goes for your mages and the weakest targets.

In my experience this last part only applies to some areas or some monster types in IWD 2. Don't know about newer games, though.

Knights of the Chalice was brutal that way. Enemies would always go for my mages. Doubly painful as said mages have a lot less hitpoints and armor class. It was a like playing against another human being.

Scriptable AI is the best option.

I'm sure game developers are "talented" programmers, but nothing can compete with the hivemind of spergs on the internet.

Let the spergs control the AI interactions and people will come up with great scripts.

I've seen this on MMO's for multiple account bots. People develop the automated scripts and share them around, and its like a hivemind trying to improve them.

Really? Bringing MMO's into the conversation as a positive example? When you have trash mechanics that are designed to make you grind and pay them for as long as possible - sure any improvement of efficiency will be worth its weight in gold - and will drive people to innovate. That doesn't change the fact that MMO mechanics are absolutely awful and are designed to waste our precious time - they do not belong in single player RPGs and there is no such need to add mechanisms to deal with their mechanics more efficiently.

There were multiple posts earlier where people got it right: the best system is turn based provided the game is designed to have less fights and those fights are custom made rather then a collection of copy pasted mobs over and over.

 

[Ranselknulf]

I wasn't talking about mechanics bro, I was talking about scriptable AI.

RTS games use scriptable AI also, but the scriptable AI's are not as robust as the mmo spergs.

You must not speak english as your native language.

 

[Bester]

Turn-based and real-time can both result in effective combat systems, provided that they are chosen with consideration to the other game mechanics.

I love these posts that are absolutely meaningless, something something in theory can be fun, blah blah, provided they are <using other words for fun>.

Unless you provide examples and explain what game fixed RTWP combat and how, you're not saying anything. Your post is devoid of substance.

 

[Bester]

such as looking at events/status - eg who is casting/channeling, who is running, 'team'-based actions where enemies perform actions based on their allies actions or events, eg mage is channeling, attack guys that are targeting mage.

That is a nice example of smart, yet not "pain in the ass" AI. However, I can't imagine a lot of other examples of this.

 

[Bester]

Scriptable AI is the best option.

I'm sure game developers are "talented" programmers, but nothing can compete with the hivemind of spergs on the internet.

Let the spergs control the AI interactions and people will come up with great scripts.

I've seen this on MMO's for multiple account bots. People develop the automated scripts and share them around, and its like a hivemind trying to improve them.

Dude, I like you, so I'll respond to an otherwise stupid post. Sorry for condescension, but please think next time you post.

You can't release a game with shitty AI, except it to do well, to gather a cult following, and then for that following to fix the game with mods (AI scripts). Mods only appear when the game is brilliant in the first place.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Scriptable AI is the best option.

I'm sure game developers are "talented" programmers, but nothing can compete with the hivemind of spergs on the internet.

Let the spergs control the AI interactions and people will come up with great scripts.

I've seen this on MMO's for multiple account bots. People develop the automated scripts and share them around, and its like a hivemind trying to improve them.

Dude, I like you, so I'll respond to an otherwise stupid post. Sorry for condescension, but please think next time you post.

You can't release a game with shitty AI, except it to do well, to gather a cult following, and then for that following to fix the game with mods (AI scripts). Mods only appear when the game is brilliant in the first place.

I swear, computer gamers think in a binary sense.

I didn't say release a game with shitty AI, I said allow players to customize the AI of their NPC companions with scripts.

As "talented" as rpg "coders" are, they can not compete with the hive mind of spergs trying to min/max their game.

 

[JarlFrank]

The only problem with that is, I prefer playing the game myself rather than having the game play itself for me.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Can't have Companions in game, because then every fight becomes the battle of Waterloo.

Simply avoid filler combats. Make less combats but more relevant.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

First step to prevent most of the "boredom" in a turn based game: make it snappy, short, quick to the point. Not just in the sense that ideally the AI shouldn't waste a lot of time thinking and executing moves, but also on the player side: quick, clean animations that respond immediately to your commands.
Ideally most moves and animations shouldn't take more than a fraction of a second. And even when it's some super-elaborate choreographed final supermove that SHOULD take five seconds because it's a big deal... Make them two at most and shut the fuck up.

EDIT and clarification - Please note that I'm not talking of "skipping animations" or going in fast forward, which are both things that can work as options but can also compromise the visual appeal of the battle. I'm specifically talking of an ideal scenario where the animations are pretty enough but quick and short by default.

This seems like it has been done in the latest Persona games.

 

[Sergiu64]

I wasn't talking about mechanics bro, I was talking about scriptable AI.

RTS games use scriptable AI also, but the scriptable AI's are not as robust as the mmo spergs.

You must not speak english as your native language.

My point is that if you've only got a few well designed fights in each dungeon/hub then scriptable AI is unnecessary and ruin the fun of it. Plus it will likely prove to be inadequate against a well designed fight. If you've got a lot of useless trash encounters - then yes scriptable AI and RTwP might become a better way to handle that. But its basically a design of: "lets be lazy about our encounters and say that our game is about combat" - and then being forced to find a way to deal with all that trash without wasting player time.

 

[fantadomat]

How does turn-based make companions bad?

It could be argued that it turns them in peons and not companion because they don't have sovereignty over their actions.

If we speak about the negatives of TB,well all the devs till now being retarded animation fags is a major one. Too much time waste on stupid animations,the number of TB games that have an option to disable animations is sooo fucking small.