French court rules Steam should allow resale of digital games, Valve will appeal

[Bester]

If that's the case I can already see Russians start selling pirated copies in a new legal gray zone thanks to the frogs. LMAO, illegal copies? No no no, you got proofs? No haha didn't think so

Chto blyat?

 

[passerby]

For example, doesn't this mean there will be in practice no way for anyone to verify if resold games are legit licenses?
If that's the case I can already see Russians start selling pirated copies in a new legal gray zone thanks to the frogs. LMAO, illegal copies? No no no, you got proofs? No haha didn't think so.

You are overthiking it, just a tidal flood of legal second hand keys from D1Ps who didn't like the game, or got bored would undercut most direct sales for years to come within a week. No such s-f scenario would be needed to kill the market.

 

[Dexter]

Neptune himself will rise from the Seas to Smite and Punish the Evil Europeans (and probably the UK, Australia, maybe Canada and a few other countries like possibly Japan and some others too) for their Dastardly Consumer Protecting Ways by installing Stadia on all their PCs!

Just like he did back when Valve were forced to allow refunds for Digital purchases by various countries like the EU, Norway and Australia and a flood of plagues descended on them as people were refunding games at n'er before observed speeds, and Steam's game selling ecosystem broke down, with them never making money ever again:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/2quaeo/refunds_are_coming_to_steam_whether_valve_likes/
https://dcc.com/services/commercial...on-for-misleading-australian-gamers-on-steam/
https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-origin-norway-consumer-council-violation
https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-purchases-in-the-eu-now-refundable-for-14-days

Never the matter that you don't even know how many percent of the user base (who are prone to impulse buying on Sale and hoarding) are even making use of refunds (I don't think I've ever refunded anything on Steam, a small percentage likely makes use of it extensively, but how large is it?) or would make use of the ability to resell their games (which would also depend on any potential implementation like the refund system with their two hour rule).

DOOM! DOOM AND PLAGUES ON EVERYONE!

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Neptune himself will rise from the Seas to Smite and Punish the Evil Europeans (and probably the UK, Australia, maybe Canada and a few other countries like possibly Japan and some others too) for their Dastardly Consumer Protecting Ways by installing Stadia on all their PCs!

Just like he did back when Valve were forced to allow refunds for Digital purchases by various countries like the EU, Norway and Australia and a flood of plagues descended on them as people were refunding games at n'er before observed speeds, and Steam's game selling ecosystem broke down:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/2quaeo/refunds_are_coming_to_steam_whether_valve_likes/
https://dcc.com/services/commercial...on-for-misleading-australian-gamers-on-steam/
https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-origin-norway-consumer-council-violation
https://www.pcgamesn.com/steam-purchases-in-the-eu-now-refundable-for-14-days

Never the matter that you don't even know how many percent of the user base (who are prone to buying on Sale and hoarding) are even making use of refunds (I don't think I've ever refunded anything on Steam, a small percentage likely makes use of it extensively, but how large is it?) or would make use of the ability to resell their games. DOOM! DOOM AND PLAGUES ON EVERYONE!

Fucking right on.

Lending games out and selling shit on was the norm you dolts. Before all you faggots swallowed gabes dick. Heaven forbid we claw back our rights. I simply refuse to buy shit digitally full priced because I can't sell it on.

Fucking NPC's, the lot of you.

 

[passerby]

https://www.g2a.com/the-age-of-decadence-steam-key-global-i10000006748004
Vince released AoD in a bundle and it's legally available for a 1$ since then, when you pay this 1$ Vince won't see a single penny from it. (he got already paid 0.1$ per key).

If people could pull out their keys and within a minute list it on ebay, each gamer that no longer wants to keep the game would put into circulation a key, that would be sold over and over again.
Every single game would be permanently legally available significantly cheaper than a direct sale within days after release.

Some people are rich and 60$ is a pocket change for them, some conscious customers would want to support the game and treat direct purchase as a form of patronage.
What do you think most people would do ?

D1Ps would amount to 90% of all revenue and the direct sale market would shrink few times...

... Welcome your timed subscriptions future... you just pirate then ?

... Welcome your timed subscription to a streaming service future.

Consumer rights victory

 

[Valky]

Good news, fuck valve and fuck steam. It's unfortunate that you all (you know who you are) supported valve and used steam to help get them to this position to begin with, but cleaning up the mess is worth something at least.

 

[Steamboat Willie]

I like how people think this ruling will somehow only apply to Valve.

 

[Vault Dweller]

https://www.g2a.com/the-age-of-decadence-steam-key-global-i10000006748004
Vince released AoD in a bundle and it's legally available for a 1$ since then, when you pay this 1$ Vince won't see a single penny from it.

We got our penny when someone bought the key in the bundle. Why should we get another penny from a resale (and what would we do with two whole pennies)?

If people could pull out their keys and sell on ebay, each gamer that no longer wants to keep the game would put into circulation a key, that would be sold over and over again.

As Dexter said, it's no different than refunds. In theory, players can just play offline then refund games, but in reality only a relatively small % of players does it. Same here.

Every single game would be permanently legally available many times cheaper than a direct sale within days after release.

Every game is also permanently but not entirely legally available for free within days after release but somehow games are still selling like hotcakes.

 

[Lady_Error]

Every single game would be permanently legally available many times cheaper than a direct sale within days after release.

The horror. I guess it will be just like the gloom and doom days before Steam.

 

[Kev Inkline]

I'd only ever use this resale feature to clear the library from some shitty games that game in bundles with some good ones and that cannot be removed without removing every item in the given bundle.

 

[Alienman]

Also lol @ the people blaming Valve for the digitalization of PC games. The PC market was already under way to murder itself before he stepped in. Everyone went to consoles and said fuck off to PC gaming, or have you all forgot about that? Don't know if it was in this thread or another, but some higher up at Take Two said that sales have gone from 1% to 40% on PC.

 

[passerby]

We got our penny when someone bought the key in the bundle. Why should we get another penny from a resale (and what would we do with two whole pennies)?

This was not the point, you've put it in a bundle because it was no longer selling, what if second hand sales were undercutting yours from day 1 ?

As Dexter said, it's no different than refunds. In theory, players can just play offline then refund games, but in reality only a relatively small % of players does it. Same here.

You compare a refund from a rare person who was interested but in the end didn't like the game enough to refund, to lets say a dozen people who bought second hand key, instead from you.

Every game is also permanently but not entirely legally available for free within days after release but somehow games are still selling like hotcakes.

How many people buy games because they think piracy is wrong, or because they think it's unconvenient. How many becuase they consider it a patronage, or are rich and don't care about pocket change ?
How many from the first group will think buying used key on ebay is right, covenient and very cheap ? What these proportions look like for a 60$ AAA game that most people see as just a toy ?

If the rich and patrons group is significantly bigger than the rest, then you are right and it won't affect the market much.

 

[Alienman]

Who buys just to undercut the first day? They would lose money. If you don't like the game, it's much better to just use the refund system.

 

[Dexter]

How many from the first group will think buying used key on ebay is right, covenient and very cheap ?

https://www.g2a.com/the-age-of-decadence-steam-key-global-i10000006748004
Vince released AoD in a bundle and it's legally available for a 1$ since then, when you pay this 1$ Vince won't see a single penny from it.

 

[attackfighter]

A relevant difference between physical and digital goods re reselling is that physical goods deteriorate with use whereas digital goods remain as good as they were new. Even if you buy someone’s used copy of a DVD, you will expect it to be scratched up a bit and perhaps faulty in some way. There is a chance it will be faulty and this lessens its value compared to a brand new copy.

Another is that the act of marketing a used digital copy is trivial compared to that of a physical copy, as the transaction can take place at the click of a button and Google search can instantly match you up with sellers. Of course, this is highly dependent on what the mechanics are behind key reselling.

It’s also wise to take into account that profit margins for goods in a highly competitive market as video games are likely to be very low, so that you can expect any profits Steam or its devs derive to be reinvested back into new products. This is to say that only a minor share of your spending is going to line the pockets of Gabe Newell and the majority of it is instead going towards the creation of new products similar to those you have signaled you are willing to buy. There is a tradeoff between reducing the industry’s ability to milk cash out of consumers and maximizing it's ability to create products in exchange for that milk.

My own opinion is that the video game industry, compared to, say, the film industry is actually a very decent one for consumers and that you can gain great value for your money if you care to. You could mandate greater perks for consumers, but I'm mostly focused on two things: the range of products available and the price I have to pay for them. I think I stand to gain the most under the current system where I buy cheap goods via humble bundles rather than the prospective one where I have to buy cheap goods from key resellers on Reddit or whatever. I think the prospective system would flood the market with very cheap keys for every game already released, but it would greatly reduce the rate at which new games are made. Since I’m a bottom feeder who relies on cheap bundles, I prefer the scenario where other people fund the development of new games for me and I just buy the cheap stuff.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Not a fan of this decision. I don't give much of a crap about Steam, but this will fuck DRM-free alternatives like GOG in the ass just as well.
Look, when it comes to physical goods, there is a natural limitation to the size second hand market, simply caused by degredation of the items over time and the resulting risk of functional defects.
Why didn't you buy all your games used back in the day? Because you didn't want to end up with a scratched CD-ROM and a manual full of fatty finger prints. Whether it's cars, kitchen appliances, toys, electronics or clothes, most of us will naturally opt for new items as long as we can reasonably afford it, because we don't want to deal with the wear and tear caused by the previous owner. There is also a natrual trust barrier because we can never fully know how the previous owner has handled the item.

With digital goods always remaining in pristine condition, there are no limits to the size of the used market and of course this is a major threat for devs, publishers and online distribution services. A single game "copy" could be resold hundreds of times, without generating a penny for the creators apart from the initial sale. I really don't see how this is supposed to work.
To avoid this, from a legal standpoint, they could probably fight to define it as selling a personal, non-transferable license. This is already happening with concert tickets that have the buyers name on them and can't be resold, which is annoying, but seems to be perfectly legal (at least it hasn't been challenged in court yet?). I don't see why the same couldn't be applied for software licences. It's either that or say hello to Netflix like subscription models. DRM free stores will be the first to go the way of the dodo, I'm pretty sure of that.

 

[passerby]

It takes some effort to list a key on Ebay. And it takes some additional effort to build up trust so people would believe it isn't a scam key.

It takes 15s to list a product for sale somewhere if you already have an account. If buyer use paypal on ebay money from the key sale are held hostage for a week and buyer is always right, same on G2A for all payment methods.
It's impossibe to scam as a seller, the other way is possible but rare like 1%.

To avoid this, from a legal standpoint, they could probably fight to define it as selling a personal, non-transferable license.

This is how digital distribution already works but the court ruled that according to EU law non-transferable part is not legal for software license.

Who buys just to undercut the first day? They would lose money. If you don't like the game, it's much better to just use the refund system.

You buy AAA popamoller, finish in 5 - 10h, put on ebay next day to get most of your money back. It'd be like Gamestop but 100 times less effort and without Gamestop cut.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Just like he did back when Valve were forced to allow refunds

Ahaha, and steamtards were using refunds as an argument on how great and generous Valve is to customers. Even calling it "unlimited refunds" when it was shown than they not really unlimited at all, and they're not intended to be used for demo-ing purposes either.

A game could be resold hundreds or dozens of times, without generating a penny for the creators apart from the initial sale. I really don't see how this is supposed to work.

Well, too bad. Guess it was a shit system to begin with then.
Not sure why I should care more about the poor developers than about my rights. And if this kills or affects the industry badly, then good riddance. It should've been dead a long time ago. Probably, if it does affects sales to any significant degree (which I doubt), the big ones will move to subscriptions. And good riddance to them as well.

Edit: Also funny how some are saying it's a bad thing that less people will just hoard games they never play.
Yeah, I mean, isn't that a great business, to sell shit to people that they never use. But those poor developers, I have to cry for them.

 

[passerby]

And how many gamers have an Ebay seller account?

Every single young adult and middle aged person I know has our local equivalent of it.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Just like he did back when Valve were forced to allow refunds

Ahaha, and steamtards were using refunds as an argument on how great and generous Valve is to customers. Even calling it "unlimited refunds" when it was shown than they not really unlimited at all, and they're not intended to be used for demo-ing purposes either.

A game could be resold hundreds or dozens of times, without generating a penny for the creators apart from the initial sale. I really don't see how this is supposed to work.

Well, too bad. Guess it was a shit system to begin with then.
Not sure why I should care more about the poor developers than about my rights. And if this kills or affects the industry badly, then good riddance. It should've been dead a long time ago. Probably, if it does affects sales to any significant degree (which I doubt), the big ones will move to subscriptions. And good riddance to them as well.

Edit: Also funny how some are saying it's a bad thing that less people will just hoard games they never play.
Yeah, I mean, isn't that a great business, to sell shit to people that they never use. But those poor developers, I have to cry for them.

Hey, can't say I disagree with your nihilistic approach, I'm set for life with my current backlog of which 90% is stored on discs or as drm free digital copies.
Approaching my mid thirties with a kid under way, realistically, if I make it through half my backlog before I kick the bucket I'll be happy.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Lots of corporate shills itt.

People already have libraries full of game they've never launched but haven't bothered to refund even thoguh that is literally a few clicks away and gives you a FULL refund. Nobody is going to be buying games at full price and turning around and selling them for pennies on the dollar the same day. Nor is anyone going to bother going through a hassle to resell a game for 5% what they paid for it if they

A: Liked the game and might want to play it again.

B: Hated the game and can get a full refund.

And if this inspires some shitty publishers to change business models to fuck the consumer even harder, so much the better, they can go down in flames for it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

People already have libraries full of game they've never launched but haven't bothered to refund even thoguh that is literally a few clicks away and gives you a FULL refund.

You can't refund after 2 weeks of purchase.

 

[Efe]

even if this gets implemented, valve will probably add a big marketplace cut to sales.
at least, bigger than whats present for cards and shit

 

[Turuko]

This will amount to practically nothing

 

[S.torch]

Lots of corporate shills itt.

Ah yes, the corporate shill. Tell me, what would happen to medium or indie studios if half of their profit or 25 percent of their profit is resold in low prices in the market? What will happen to studios that only make singleplayer games?

 

[Blaine]

It's been years since I've thought extensively about what I'll call "the potential ramifications of allowing resale of purely digital entertainment products." The concept of products whose physical versions can be resold but whose digital versions cannot first came to my attention with the advent of e-books and RPG rulebook PDFs in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Of course, long before digital distribution became standard and ubiquitous, game developers were endlessly brainstorming ways to discourage consumers from reselling used physical copies as well. No doubt Hollywood has wished they could do the same with used VHS tapes and DVDs for several decades; record companies have doubtless been daydreaming of a similar scenario for over a century; and frankly, if booksellers could feasibly find a way to prevent people from reselling or giving away used books, they'd probably be all for it. For that matter, I'll go a step further and speculate that manufacturers of practical, purely physical goods such as chairs and cups would rather everyone be forced to buy new chairs and cups instead of buying worn ones cheaply from charity shops or yard sales. Indeed, every seller of anything would no doubt prefer that every customer pay full price for a brand-new product every single time.

Naturally, not everyone who is successfully denied access to secondhand versions of a product can/will pay full price for a new product. One of the most asinine practices of game developers/publishers in particular is that they invariably count every single pirated or resold copy of their game as an entire lost sale, which is clearly moronic. Because of the nature of entertainment media, it's actually somewhat feasible to force everyone to buy a new product each time under the right circumstances, as we've seen since the turn of the century; but game developers in particular seem to feel utterly entitled to sell every copy brand-new, and have even come to somewhat depend on this, despite the fact that console games are still largely being distributed physically. (Their anti-resale tactics have been successful to some extent, though, enough so that GameStop has been in financial peril for several years now... of course, GameStop are greedy pieces of shit in their own right, taking almost every cent of the profit from their middlemanning of used game sales.)

TL;DR: It's a very complex issue, and while my gut feeling is that people should have the right, as consumers, to sell off their used goods and to purchase used goods, be they chairs or computer games... it's just not that simple, because one must consider the ramifications. As someone else essentially said earlier in this thread, a moral victory here will be very little comfort if the ramifications fuck you in the ass.