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French court rules Steam should allow resale of digital games, Valve will appeal

taxalot

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I am not denying the impact of the matter. But we are talking about the rights of owning and reselling something. This is a fundamental right, and the economics around it will have to adapt, even if some do suffer from it.

Physical media will be the new big thing.
 
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I am not denying the impact of the matter. But we are talking about the rights of owning and reselling something. This is a fundamental right, and the economics around it will have to adapt, even if some do suffer from it.

Physical media will be the new big thing.
I hope you enjoy Stadia.
 

attackfighter

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taxalot
It is said of the French economy that it works in practice and not in theory, so, given precedents, whatever they do will likely miraculously work out. And hell, I'd trade Canada for France any day. And there is, furthermore, the island of respite that is piracy... What I'm saying is, I'm not wholly against it.
 

taxalot

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I am not denying the impact of the matter. But we are talking about the rights of owning and reselling something. This is a fundamental right, and the economics around it will have to adapt, even if some do suffer from it.

Physical media will be the new big thing.
I hope you enjoy Stadia.

I am already enjoying PS NOW. I sure will enjoy Stadia.
 

Damned Registrations

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Games were more expensive back in the day where you could trade them, though.
Like hell they were. Even without DLC I've never seen such expensive games in physical retail. Throw on mandatory DLC to make the game complete and it's disgusting. Doubly so because of the lack of distribution costs.
So you mean it's like books and movies, where for their age of existence people have been trading them legally for same exact copies. And so were physical games, by the way. A wrapper that is slightly worn or a disc hardly scratched is inconsequential.
There are physical barriers to trading physical media that you're purposely ignoring because it doesn't fit your argument.
I can't sell someone 3,000 miles away a book and have them receive it immediately with zero effort on my end. I have to deal with packaging and shipping the item, and question if it's even worth my time to sell a $10 used book.

And yet millions are doing it, having an actual impact on the economics of said media distribution.
rating_citation.png
What rock have you been living under? Here's your fucking citation:

 

mogwaimon

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In actuality, I often find it's more expensive to buy a digital game on the PS store than to buy a brand new plastic-wrapped copy of the same game off eBay...I also don't like the used car analogy, because sometimes the difference between a used car and a new car is a signature, since the car depreciates by a significant amount the moment that you sign the purchase agreement. Also, UPS, USPS, and other postal services exist, not to mention Gamestop, so the physical barriers Rusty is talking about aren't anywhere near as inconvenient as he makes out.

Valve is trying to claim that you are (legally) just a "Subscriber" to their "Subscription service" and what you are purchasing is "Subscriptions". It's not only about Valve though, the same can be said for E-books bought from Amazon or music from iTunes or whatever. There seem to be an awful lot of people here putting their hands up and yelling "I bought this/paid full money for it, but I don't actually own it and <Service provider> can always retract my right to use it for any reason whatsoever!".
Misconstruing our argument.
The problem is that very few people will ever buy games at full price, and a lot of people will simply buy used keys that are sold & resold.
And no, there isn't an analogue to this in physical media. In this scenario, you would be able to resell a key with a few clicks. It is a perfect copy of the exact same item you'd receive if you paid full price, without any inconveniences for the buyer or seller.

It's quite obvious that games would immediately shift to games as a service if this was implemented. Things like Stadia would be the new normal. If you think that's an improvement over the current situation then… alright.

I mean he's not completely wrong, but in reality what we're purchasing with a Steam game isn't just the game, it's the game plus storage costs for the game on Steam's servers plus Steam Cloud for saves and the convenience of quick and simple patches, auto-updates and the like. There is no physical product, so in a way you don't really own anything, since if you owned the 0s and 1s that make up the game code, you'd then own the IP of the game company....it's more complicated than one lets on, but I think most of us can agree that the current status quo actually benefits us more than it harms us. Eventually, Steam will decline and go the way of the dodo and when that happens no one will be able to access their games anymore so...it actually is a subscription.
I'm not saying that it's right, I'm not saying that I completely agree with how business is done in a moral way, it's just that we have no clearcut way to solve the issue. Do you sell games on physical media on PC again? Then costs will go up and the physical media will quickly become outdated as patches come out (this is going to be a problem in the future on consoles, especially, thank God for piracy because without that we'd lose a lot of priceless games, DLC, and data). Do you remove all DRM and turn Steam into a GOGlike storefront? Sure, that would be good but wouldn't solve the core issue of ownership rights. Do we, heavens forbid, move to Games as a Service and relinquish all ownership rights in favor of a Games on Demand streaming service? Hell no in my opinion, that's not a future I want to see even if we had instantaneous 1:1 internet streaming technology and every game in existence on the platform, and then we'd STILL be at 'where do my games go when this service eventually shuts down?'

EDIT: I'm so used to seeing Infinitron with that avatar that I mistook Rusty_Shackleford for him, sorry about that.
 
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Dexter

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There is no physical product, so in a way you don't really own anything, since if you owned the 0s and 1s that make up the game code, you'd then own the IP of the game company....
"So in a way, if you owned the 0s and 1s that make up the movie pixels, you'd then own the IP of the movie company"
"So in a way, if you owned the 0s and 1s that make up the letters of the e-book, you'd then own the IP of the book author"
"So in a way, if you owned the 0s and 1s that make up the sounds of the mp3, you'd then own the IP of the record company"

There was a lot of retarded shit in that post ignoring all sorts of things and basic realities, but this really takes the cake.
 

FeelTheRads

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Owning something digital means you own the source code and the rights to use the IP. Because certainly that's what people ask when they mean they want to own the product they buy.

Yep, this has to be some new kind of idiocy, don't think I've see this one before.
 

eric__s

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That's pretty cool, now when I want to let someone play one of my digitally-owned games, I can just sell it to them for 1 cent, and they'll sell it back to me for 1 cent when they're done. I can even see this transitioning into some kind of digital renting system.
 

mogwaimon

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How is that retarded? How is anything else in that post retarded? It's a fact that a car depreciates the instant you take possession of it, it's a fact that Steam will not be around forever, leaving you without access to games that you've paid for (this has already happened with the Wii and original DS)...

So the main problem you have with the argument is the implication I made regarding ownership of data. Well, what do you actually own when you purchase a digital item? Do you own the files on server? Do you own only the data on your hard drive? What if your HDD breaks and you don't have a backup? With, for example, a book, it's more clear cut. You buy the book in the store, you own that physical copy of the book, you can do whatever you want with it, and if it is lost or destroyed there is no expectation on the company that manufactures the book or the store that sold you the book to replace that book down the line. If a revision is made to the book, it's generally accepted that you have to buy a new copy, or in the case of PnP roleplaying games, go online to find the errata. If we want to compare this to the current situation with gaming media, you only really own the physical paper that the words are printed on and not the words within that book. You can alter your own copy however you want, you can resell it, you can do just about anything with it except copy it and distribute the copies, legally speaking.

When you buy digital items, there are no physical items exchanged, and oftentimes there is an expectation that, if the local copy of the data is lost, the storefront will replace that data. When you download that data, it goes on to your hard drive or flash drive or whatever piece of physical media, which you already owned...so what are you buying? Are you buying the data itself? If you were buying the actual data then yes, you would own, in part, the intellectual property of the company that made the game. What you're really buying, in this case, is the right to personal use of that data, in other words a license....and legally you are supposed to be able to make copies of that data for personal use as well, but that's a whole other can of worms. You are also typically paying for the bandwidth costs of delivering the data to you, as well as continued access to the store's servers to access a copy of that data in case your local copy is lost or corrupted. You can also typically alter the copy of the data on your PC as you see fit, at least that's how it should be in a sane world, but you still don't own the data on your computer in the same way that you don't own the story or information in the book in the example above.

So, I mean, you can distort the argument and call it retarded if you want, but you know what I'm trying to say.
 

Zanzoken

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TL;DR: It's a very complex issue, and while my gut feeling is that people should have the right, as consumers, to sell off their used goods and to purchase used goods, be they chairs or computer games... it's just not that simple, because one must consider the ramifications. As someone else essentially said earlier in this thread, a moral victory here will be very little comfort if the ramifications fuck you in the ass.

Good post. I am sympathetic to the argument that we should support this decision out of principle, but if it puts indie developers out of business then I don't think any of us will be better off.
 

Valky

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There is a certain hypocrisy in anybody claiming to care about digital ownership and simultaneously having monetarily supported valve and using their platform for years.
 

Curious_Tongue

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I'm not rich by any means, but I'm far less interested in the cost of games over actually having games made that I want to play.

I'm scared this will kill off smaller developers who might be able to produce something worth playing in the future.
 

Blaine

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There is a certain hypocrisy in anybody claiming to care about digital ownership and simultaneously having monetarily supported valve and using their platform for years.

When Steam was in its infancy, a great many computer gamers at the time—perhaps even a majority of them—vehemently opposed what it represented, but were ultimately powerless to prevent it. The same people were similarly vehemently opposed to the introduction of microtransaction shops, gambling schemes, abusive DLC shenanigans, pre-order coercion schemes, et cetera.

I personally believe that this opposition had some limited effect, but only managed to slow the decline for at most a few years.

In order to avoid the hypocrisy you speak of, you pretty much would need to have stopped playing computer games entirely a long time ago. I guarantee, for example, that even if you're a Steam boycotter who's never strayed, you've purchased games from and therefore supported companies who sell most copies of their games on Steam—thereby supporting Steam. No matter how indirectly, supporting companies that distribute via Steam means you're supporting Steam and its monopoly.
 

Valky

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There is a certain hypocrisy in anybody claiming to care about digital ownership and simultaneously having monetarily supported valve and using their platform for years.

When Steam was in its infancy, a great many computer gamers at the time—perhaps even a majority of them—vehemently opposed what it represented, but were ultimately powerless to prevent it. The same people were similarly vehemently opposed to the introduction of microtransaction shops, gambling schemes, abusive DLC shenanigans, pre-order coercion schemes, et cetera.

I personally believe that this opposition had some limited effect, but only managed to slow the decline for at most a few years.

In order to avoid the hypocrisy you speak of, you pretty much would need to have stopped playing computer games entirely a long time ago. I guarantee, for example, that even if you're a Steam boycotter who's never strayed, you've purchased games from and therefore supported companies who sell most copies of their games on Steam—thereby supporting Steam. No matter how indirectly, supporting companies that distribute via Steam means you're supporting Steam and its monopoly.

I exclusively pirate games that deign to release nowhere except steam, and purchase games that developers release on a DRM free platform such as direct from their website.

edit: However, I do see the merit in what you are suggesting by blanket blacklisting any developer who distributes via Steam at any point in their life cycle, even if they have alternative releases, but I'm not that dedicated yet.
 
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Tehdagah

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So are the guys crying about this on Valve's payroll or do they just like being retarded?
I can't stand lord Gaben losing sales!

TL;DR: It's a very complex issue, and while my gut feeling is that people should have the right, as consumers, to sell off their used goods and to purchase used goods, be they chairs or computer games... it's just not that simple, because one must consider the ramifications. As someone else essentially said earlier in this thread, a moral victory here will be very little comfort if the ramifications fuck you in the ass.

Good post. I am sympathetic to the argument that we should support this decision out of principle, but if it puts indie developers out of business then I don't think any of us will be better off.
Indie devs are important now :shittydog:
 

FeelTheRads

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No, indeed, what should happen is developers living on sales from people who buy shit they have no interest in just because it's cheap.
Kwan logic.

Gamers are oppressed

In fact, yes, they are. Compared to the customers of any other industry they are shit upon constantly. And they just take it and love it, because most of them are retarded morons or unpaid corporate shills, just like you are.

What's wrong with independent developers?

Everything if they can only exist from this kind of sales. And apparently that's the case since most of the crying in this thread is about how indies are gonna die because there will be less people buying and not playing.

Imagine, being a business based on impulse buying. It's literally one step from being a scam. But it's the kwan way, that's why retarded_retardedford is so butthurt about it. It's against the kwan way if companies don't get money just for existing.
 

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