Are Thief 3's Shalebridge Cradle and VTMB's Ocean House levels overrated?

[Nano]

There is a Thief 3?

Thief 3 mostly sucks, but it had a few good levels. Shalebridge is one of them, Widow Moira's mansion is another one that sticks out in my mind.

 

[Zombra]

I guess I'm the only person who actually tried not to get killed in Ocean House. Everyone else was like, "Oh, flying furniture hitting me at 80 miles an hour, this is basically a cutscene, I'll just hold down W until it's over." Yeah right.

 

[YldriE]

Shalebridge Cradle is incredibly overrated

I don't like horror so I judge horror on irrelevant stuff

You're not competent to offer criticism.

On the contrary, though it didn't work for him in particular, I still think that's precisely why it works.

When you play a horror game, you have a good idea of what to expect and how your character should handle it, and mentally you are in spooky-house-simulator mode. You are waiting for horror, you are in the ghost train at the fair, with your arms crossed, your smug smirk, saying "go ahead faggot, scare me".

I think that makes these gimmick missions solid insight into horror in media, because they made us feel precisely how we should feel: we have no reason to be afraid, we are not in horror mood, we feel safe and confident about what the player can do and how we deal with danger, and yet we get served with something unfamiliar, implied threats that never materialize, and even if we do figure out we are nearing a sudden gameplay gimmick, we still have good reason to believe it's going to be an instakill sequence instead of constant pressure and build-up.

That's why anything that gets you to understand ahead of time ruins it. Be it forum hype, a second playthrough, or just you figuring out too soon that it's all bark and no bite, once you get it, it's over. They work precisely because you have no reason to expect horror, they are a very sudden change of pace that doesn't get replicated or mentioned later.

Calling these two examples "overrated" is still putting extreme pressure on gimmick scripted missions. Good on you if they worked, too bad if they didn't.

 

[Wesp5]

I guess I'm the only person who actually tried not to get killed in Ocean House.

You can die easily in the Ocean House if you don't care what you do. Most dangerous are the flaming walls and hot vents though...

 

[Unkillable Cat]

JarlFrank It looks to me your stance fails on two points: You're being hypercritical of one level of an entire game, and your opinion comes from the perspective of hindsight.

Shalebridge Cradle looks and feels a little dated nowadays, but 15 years ago (fuck I'm old) it was phenomenal. People talked about it for months afterwards, to the point that PC Gamer ran a multi-page article about it in 2005. Today it stands as one of the essential steps for horror-inspired developers to take before they can even attempt to do horror in a computer game. Another point worth mentioning that in 2004 Thief 3 also had VtM:B and Doom 3 to contend with, who both tried to grab some of that horror pie. I haven't played Bloodlines myself so I won't comment on it, but Doom 3 flopped kinda hard as its horror aspect was focused on the most hated aspect of the game - the flashlight.

And I never considered Return to the Haunted Cathedral to be a horror-themed mission in Thief 1. It's certainly spooky and creepy and even occasionally horrific, but not enough to get it slapped as a horror map. And it has been mentioned before, but compare RttHC to the FM "The Inverted Manse" for something much closer to horror.

Another interesting comparison to make (if you dare to) is to compare Shalebridge Cradle to Moira's Asylum in Thiaf. While there is a rundown of Thiaf readily available (*cough*sig*cough*) it's something best experienced first-hand.

 

[JarlFrank]

Another interesting comparison to make (if you dare to) is to compare Shalebridge Cradle to Moira's Asylum in Thiaf. While there is a rundown of Thiaf readily available (*cough*sig*cough*) it's something best experienced first-hand.

I've seen Let's Plays. That's enough. I have no need to stain my hard drive with Thi4f, not even by pirating it.

While I think the Cradle is incredibly overrated and not that fun if you're not a fan of horror, I can still see why a horror fan might like it.

What I've seen of Thi4f's asylum, however, screams of cargo cult design that has no idea wtf it's doing. Essentially a "the Cradle was a popular level so we have to clone it". Which doesn't surprise me considering the entirety of Thi4f is a failed attempt at cloning better games.

 

[fantadomat]

What do you think?

That avatar looks like just another thief character to me. Then why did you write "The last of its kind." ?

Because it was the last good thief game. Darkmod is a modding platform after all,it is not a whole new game. After Thief 3,there is no other good stealth/stealing game.

Also,lol infi got butthurt that nobody is talking about the stupid dyke simulator and split the content in to a few threads,amazing.

 

[Zombra]

I think the Cradle is incredibly overrated

Jesus fucking christ stop using that word you don't know what it means

 

[JarlFrank]

It's overrated

 

[DalekFlay]

There is a Thief 3?

What was traumatizing and terrible at the time now isn't half bad because of limited better options. Also it's way better than Deus Ex 2.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I still haven't played it lmao. Thief 1 & 2 are among my top favored games of all times the butthurt over the downgrade that was Thief 3 has never subsided for me. I'll concede however that compared to Thiaf it is probably a masterpiece.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

I still haven't played it lmao. Thief 1 & 2 are among my top favored games of all times the butthurt over the downgrade that was Thief 3 has never subsided for me. I'll concede however that compared to Thiaf it is probably a masterpiece.

You definitely should.

It is a 100% Thief game, in that it's heart is in right place, and also regarding the general atmosphere and direction, such as overall themes, art direction, Eric Brosius' music score, Stephen Russell voicing half of the characters, and all that jazz etc..

It greatly benefits from the fact that Thief was planned as a trilogy, first focusing on "Chaos" in form of Pagans, the second game going in an opposite direction with "Order" getting deviated with an advent of Mechanists, and finally back into the middle ground with the third game focusing on the Keepers/"balance", full circle (though Deadly Shadows is much more Dark Project than the Metal Age, with the suspense, undead and all). Those poor folks simply didn't have a chance to do it in DarkEngine - if Deadly Shadows was in that engine, you wouldn't even notice there was shit like the studio collapsing inbetween. In that regard it's even above New Vegas.

Virtually all of the criticism is due to how the console limitations hit the actual gameplay, the biggest offender of them all is of course those loading screens splitting levels in half. But, you can get a mods such as "Sneaky edition" or "Thief 3 Gold" that fixes that and more issues/conveniences. plus some John P texture packs or whatever that I never liked. Once you do disable that fucking loading screen, some of the levels actually get much more Thiefy, such as Wieldstrom museum or Widow Moira mansion (it's not like Ramirez's mansion was super huge either).

And then of course you have the Cradle, which for many people is the best Thief level of all time.

It's also such a highlight mainly because of how well it fits in the larger context of the game, when juxtaposed with all until that point, which you'll get when you see it (JarlFrank's contrarian rantings nonwithstanding). It definitely is as inspired as Thief 1's highlights, or Bank or Life of the Party from the 2, albeit for different reasons. Aside from that, I'd say the rest of the levels are alright, and consistent - nothing mindblowing like Life of the Party, although none of them as horrible as Thieves Guild or a redundant waste of time like Thief 2's level re-use. But once again, it definitely is worth playing just for the Shalebridge Cradle alone - and for the music, I'd say as well.

I definitely would play Deadly Shadows any day over those inane Thief Gold additions that ruined the perfect Dark Project for me, so much that I'm triggered every time I see that logo. Think of it as what New Vegas is to Fallout 1 and 2 and you'll be much more understanding of the game, even if not forgiving.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

While I think the Cradle is incredibly overrated and not that fun if you're not a fan of horror, I can still see why a horror fan might like it.

The only "problem" I have with the Cradle is that it sadly works to the fullest extent only the first time, but I guess it's unavoidable since it's part of it's design.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Fully agreed. Thief 3 has terrible flaws, but it is still a true Thief game in terms of atmosphere, story, writing, sound design etc. It also has some well designed levels.
A masterpiece compared to that sad (and quickly forgotten) joke that was Thiaf 4.

 

[Nano]

I definitely would play Deadly Shadows any day over those inane Thief Gold additions that ruined the perfect Dark Project for me, so much that I'm triggered every time I see that logo.

C'mon. Shalebridge Cradle is scary and all, but none of Thief 3's missions hold a candle to Song Of The Caverns.

 

[Child of Malkav]

The story in Thief 3 is super good.
I remember after revealing Gamall to be the big bad that I was expecting to encounter it in the Cradle mission, Gamall's lair, the keeper compound (where you find a note addressed to you, just shows how many steps ahead of you it was) and the museum (when Garrett says "all right Gamall, let's see who the real thief is", I was thinking "am I going to have to find these artifacts before Gamall does? Is it a timed mission? Will it appear in the level? Can I survive it?" All these questions.) And....nothing.
They build it up so good throughout the game. Really cool.

 

[DeepOcean]

Maybe it's a good horror mission, sure, okay. I don't care about horror and am not going to debate it on those grounds. Maybe it is, that's fine by me.

I didn't like the Cradle as well, it is far from being trash like Thieve's Guild but it was very meh in terms of architecture and enemy placement. The level suffers alot from the fetch quest design with plenty of backtracking and the asylum isn't as iconic as the Constantine Mansion on Thief 1.

In terms of horror, I was bored half way through after I discovered I could backstab the patients and discovered how easy it was to avoid the staff so I kept backtracking through a mostly empty asylum doing chores to a spirit. It would be a far more interesting place if the level actually took the whole "The Cradle wants your soul." thing seriously in terms of gameplay.

There were other levels like the Bonehoard and the Return to the Cathedral on Thief 1 that were more frightening but no official level managed to truly scare me. Horror is much more related to what you can't see, what you can't predict, what you imagine to be instead of watching enemies with knowable abilities doing predictable patrol routes. After a few minutes watching an enemy doing its predictable patrol, you lose fear for it.

 

[Zombra]

The story in Thief 3 is super good ... I was expecting to encounter [Gamall] in the Cradle mission, Gamall's lair, the keeper compound and the museum. And....nothing. They build it up so good throughout the game. Really cool.

Never have I been more "not sure if serious"! Sarcasm? I can't tell. But I completely agree with this at face value. "Fighting" Gamall obliquely by stealing the shit she was trying to put together was so much more satisfying here than any kind of in-engine boss fight (or "backstab the skull" or "sneak past the orbs to get to the heart") could have been.

 

[Child of Malkav]

The story in Thief 3 is super good ... I was expecting to encounter [Gamall] in the Cradle mission, Gamall's lair, the keeper compound and the museum. And....nothing. They build it up so good throughout the game. Really cool.

Never have I been more "not sure if serious"! Sarcasm? I can't tell. But I completely agree with this at face value. "Fighting" Gamall obliquely by stealing the shit she was trying to put together was so much more satisfying here than any kind of in-engine boss fight (or "backstab the skull" or "sneak past the orbs to get to the heart") could have been.

My choice of words could have been better.
I didn't expect to fight Gamall at any point, it's a Thief game, but they built her up in such a way that made me consider what happens if i do run into her.
And that's what scared me: it gave me the illusion that I can encounter her at any point and all I knew about her was her name.
And the fact she's very powerful, old, cunning, able to take out a number of keepers when Garrett revealed her true form to the others, writing that note to Garrett in the keeper compound knowing he would go there and preparing an ambush, bringing statues to life etc.

 

[DalekFlay]

Yeah I haven't played Thief 3 in a long time (might change that soon, thanks thread), but I remember being somewhat creeped out that the boss lady could pop up anywhere.

 

[Beastro]

The only "problem" I have with the Cradle is that it sadly works to the fullest extent only the first time, but I guess it's unavoidable since it's part of it's design.

But isn't that most horror? Unless you find your weak spot in a specific movie or something that never stops being scary for you you will get used to things.

The heart of horror is the fear of the unknown. By working through anything horror you're making the unknown known, so a retread will always be less scary due to at least knowing what to expect later on, even if you dread anticipating it still.

I know it gets shit on, but it's what I liked about the movies Signs. It had very effective scary moments when in the moment. The trouble is it's a movie you can only enjoy once. After that the fear evaporates after leaving you like after a dream, with the impact of the experience still resonating, but then you go through what happened in the dream only to realize the details are silly nonsense.

It would be a far more interesting place if the level actually took the whole "The Cradle wants your soul." thing seriously in terms of gameplay.

Thinking about it, I think they should have had an opening part that leads you on the path you did, but then shifts sooner to the end area where you're chased and have to jump out the tower. That is, you fail in your mission and get sucked up by the Cradle having to find a way to escape while avoiding the shadowy guards who would game over you if they were able to get close to attack.

 

[Zombra]

The only "problem" I have with the Cradle is that it sadly works to the fullest extent only the first time

Isn't that most horror? The heart of horror is the fear of the unknown. By working through anything horror you're making the unknown known, so a retread will always be less scary.

Of course. I hope no one out there thinks that the Cradle or Ocean House are widely praised because they're still mindblowing on the 5th playthrough. Of course they aren't.

Sadly this also applies to the entire game Dark Corners of the Earth, a very ambitious title which had its scope cut way back during production (did you know: there were originally going to be some half a dozen recurring friendly NPCs, including a romantic interest). The first time through, I had no idea what to expect, and I was terrified at a game over every moment. I tried a replay of DCotE years later and felt rather let down. It was like playing ... well ... Thief. Watch the enemy patterns, backstab, rinse and repeat.

My choice of words could have been better.

Nah, you're great. I'm just always surprised when anyone else but me appreciates the value of negative space in gaming.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

There is a Thief 3?

What was traumatizing and terrible at the time now isn't half bad because of limited better options. Also it's way better than Deus Ex 2.

Mankind Divided was pretty ok though

 

[Child of Malkav]

There is a Thief 3?

What was traumatizing and terrible at the time now isn't half bad because of limited better options. Also it's way better than Deus Ex 2.

Mankind Divided was pretty ok though

In my opinion, it's the gold standard for hybrid games, games that offer plenty of options and approaches. Of course, I'm talking gameplay wise, exclusively. It was an improvement over Human Revolution. Unfortunately it wasn't an immersive sim.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

I definitely would play Deadly Shadows any day over those inane Thief Gold additions that ruined the perfect Dark Project for me, so much that I'm triggered every time I see that logo.

C'mon. Shalebridge Cradle is scary and all, but none of Thief 3's missions hold a candle to Song Of The Caverns.

True, level design and complexity remains inferior, I don't dispute that. But once again, in a game so 10/10 as first Thief, if out of 3 extra missions only one is great, I don't consider it an improvement at all.

 

[flyingjohn]

Oceanside hotel:
-No proper enemies
-No rpg interaction whatsoever
-Railroaded design
-Major focus on atmosphere
-Tedious on repeat play through

Beach house
-Multiple enemies
-Allows you to use every skill you developed
-Small but has multiple options
-No atmosphere
-You can breeze through the level if you know what you are doing

Why is ocean hotel good again?

Haven't play thief 3 so can't comment on the cradle.But if the level isn't miles better then other thief 3 levels in terms of complexity than its overrated.