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Dark Souls is absolutely an RPG, explanation

Alex

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cvv

I will try to explain what I intended to say in a more succinct way.

  1. RPGs are a social activity. They are defined by something that can only be done with other humans.
  2. Single player computer games are instead determined by their gameplay, by how it creates challenges for the player and what those challenges are, and how it helps the player get better to overcome them.
  3. CRPGs are computer games. As such, they are defined by this gameplay. Since there is not a specific gameplay associated with CRPGs, they are not really a genre, but a way to separate games thematically.
  4. A game is more of a CRPG or less of a CRPG the more or less it allows for the player to engage the gameworld, play and customise his role in the game, the more or less his role affects gameplay, specific challenges, etc.
  5. DS2 has some pretty good aspects of a CRPG.
  6. However, despite that, these aspects don't go so deep into the gameplay of the game itself. The game still plays mostly as an action game with attribute and equipment choices changing a lot but failing to build up to anything looking like a story.
  7. Other CRPGs like Fallout or Bloodlines have their gameplay more geared to look like a tabletop RPG, and thus manage to do a better job than DS2.
  8. Which is why I believe people on this site are justified in saying that DS2 is not an RPG, even though it is a very good attempt at an action RPG.
So, I hope this helps.
 

Nutmeg

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I once classified RPGs as "any game where player controlled actors have numeric attributes which are shown to the player, affect possible player actions, and may themselves be permanently altered by player actions through the course of a game".

It workes well enough as a classifier. Think of some games and try it out. You end up capturing the whole "we added RPG elements" thing.

I also consider RPG-ness an anti-pattern in game design. I mean is Dark Souls really better because at the end of every successful gauntlet I'm given the opportunity to try and break the game?
 

Alex

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Yes.

"
Dark Souls is not an RPG, An RPG, when we consider the tabletop activity, is defined by the interaction of the people playing around the table.
"
no :happytrollboy:


My point in bringing up tabletop RPGs and then arguing about gameplay is to establish that computer (or console or cellphone, or whatever platform you use for electronic games) single player games can't really be RPGs in a strict meaning of the word.

But they can be like RPGs, that the classification of something as an CRPG is not something completely arbitrary, even if the underlying genre of the game is really an strategy game, or an FPS or an adventure game.

However, if this premise is accepted, most games today are a bit like RPGs. Thus why people say things like "Doom is an rpg, you play the role of an space marine".

In the rest of my argument, then, I try to establish that while some aspects of DS are commendable for a CRPG, managing to have the RPG core affect the gameplay in a significant way, in the end most of the game is concerned solely with being an action game; whereas games we have traditionally called CRPGs have managed to go bring RPG elements of gameplay. That is, to make it so you choosing your role and playing it out is a more important part of playing the game than it is in Dark Souls.
 
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Because you required to specialize - in DS you can be good at everything.
You can't do all roles with an optimal efficiency on the first cycle, even if over-leveled. The differences between characters tend only to disappear if the player continues to level up on the higher cycles, especially in DS II & III where it's easy to go above SL 250-300, but also because of the soft caps.

whereas in DS you can complete the game in level 1 without spending a single stat point.
A very small minority of players is doing that. The large majority (millions of persons actually) is certainly increasing the stats to compensate a lack of reflexes on a side, and play with certain weapons, armors or spells on the other.

While the stats do not have the same effects than in Morrowind or Titan Quest, Dark Souls is still a mix between action and RPG, because for most players both reflexes and numbers are necessary.
 

DJOGamer PT

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"What is an RPG?" - thread no. 3629

whereas in DS you can complete the game in level 1 without spending a single stat point.
A very small minority of players is doing that. The large majority (millions of persons actually) is certainly increasing the stats to compensate a lack of reflexes on a side, and play with certain weapons, armors or spells on the other.

Yeah but my point was that in Deus Ex you cannot progress in the game if you don't engage with the game's RPG mechanics. Whereas in DS that is totally possible.

If it was, it would be shit.

Why?
 

Bester

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Infinitron did you move this thread to jrpg, where nobody would see it? The whole purpose was to discuss it with general-rpg audience. Jrpg audience already acknowledges it's an rpg anyway. Move it back?
 
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Infinitron did you move this thread to jrpg, where nobody would see it? The whole purpose was to discuss it with general-rpg audience. Jrpg audience already acknowledges it's an rpg anyway. Move it back?
Nah forget it. RPG Codex is not the right place for sensible debates. The idiodrones won't let it become anything more than a burning garbage heap.
 

DalekFlay

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It's a hybrid, like a ton of games are. People don't like hybrids though, because they want easy classifications, so here we are.
 

the mole

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No one uses anything other than Katanas and longswords most weapons aren't really viable, the rpg aspect would mean hey you can make any character you want , but if you want to play pvp you would have to level more, so you're stuck with everyone using the same meta shit and not roleplaying, in that case is it really a role playing game
 

Bester

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No one uses anything other than Katanas and longswords most weapons aren't really viable, the rpg aspect would mean hey you can make any character you want , but if you want to play pvp you would have to level more, so you're stuck with everyone using the same meta shit and not roleplaying, in that case is it really a role playing game
??? I'm playing through DS3 right now, I constantly get invaded and successfully ganked with weapons which names I don't even know.
Katana is a newbie friendly weapon. Lot of people try it. When they get tired of it, they move on to something else.

In DS2 I'd say there's a tendency towards heavy equipment, i.e. big havel-like armor. I'd say over 60%. Not so in the weapons department.

but if you want to play pvp you would have to level more
? PVP always matches you with the same level bracket, wtf you're talking about.

Any time someone tries bashing the Souls, it turns out they have no idea what they're talking about.
 

the mole

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If you think it's a roleplaying game let's discuss the builds you can use in pvp, 27 strength quality build, the list ends there

I've tried an anri's sword miracle build with all the buffs, and it was alright, I've also done a havels hollowslayer so I could trade with almost everything in the game

Let me clarify, dark souls 3 isn't really an rpg in practice, but with poise working in ds1 and 2 maybe they functioned more as rpgs

I would also consider bloodbourne as more of a meaningful rpg because weapons are very unique and require more specific builds, changing how you play, but in ds3 everyone uses the same build, so it isn't really a roleplaying game
 

the mole

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No one uses anything other than Katanas and longswords most weapons aren't really viable, the rpg aspect would mean hey you can make any character you want , but if you want to play pvp you would have to level more, so you're stuck with everyone using the same meta shit and not roleplaying, in that case is it really a role playing game
??? I'm playing through DS3 right now, I constantly get invaded and successfully ganked with weapons which names I don't even know.
Katana is a newbie friendly weapon. Lot of people try it. When they get tired of it, they move on to something else.

In DS2 I'd say there's a tendency towards heavy equipment, i.e. big havel-like armor. I'd say over 60%. Not so in the weapons department.

but if you want to play pvp you would have to level more
? PVP always matches you with the same level bracket, wtf you're talking about.

Any time someone tries bashing the Souls, it turns out they have no idea what they're talking about.
If you want to pvp in dark souls 3 you'll have to stay around 120 to get opponents, in that scenario almost no roleplaying is being done, everyone is using the same exact shit due to game design, so is it really a role playing game in that case I say no, now when we're just talking about playing through the game and not playing exclusively for a meta level, then sure it's an rpg
 

Bester

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If you think it's a roleplaying game let's discuss the builds you can use in pvp, 27 strength quality build, the list ends there
I did over 400 hours in DS games, I never once did quality build. Lol. You have no idea what builds other people are playing.

DS3 was being balanced for 3 years with patches. Over half of weapons work in pvp.

I've tried an anri's sword miracle build with all the buffs, and it was alright, I've also done a havels hollowslayer so I could trade with almost everything in the game

Let me clarify, dark souls 3 isn't really an rpg in practice, but with poise working in ds1 and 2 maybe they functioned more as rpgs
"I've stuck to Steam guide builds only, cause I have no personality of my own, WAAAAH DARK SOULS ISNT AN RPG"

Dude, I don't even know what builds you're describing. I never read about DS lore or builds, I figure out things for myself. And I only meet diverse builds all the time.

If you want to pvp in dark souls 3 you'll have to stay around 120 to get opponents
Funny, I'm still not level 120, I'm 75% through the game, I think I'm around level 90, I had A SHIT TON of pvp encounters so far. At one point I joined the anor londo covenant (blades of the darkmoon?) around level 50-60 and was commonalty summoned to pvp for hours on and on, until I couldn't bear it anymore and unequipped the covenant item.

So yeah. Your posts look like butthurt for some reason.
 
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toro

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If you want to pvp in dark souls 3 you'll have to stay around 120 to get opponents, in that scenario almost no roleplaying is being done, everyone is using the same exact shit due to game design, so is it really a role playing game in that case I say no, now when we're just talking about playing through the game and not playing exclusively for a meta level, then sure it's an rpg



Greatswords, pikes, short swords, spells, buffs ... in other words: exactly the same shit! EXACTLY THE SAME SHIT DUE TO GAME DESIGN!!!

fucking moron.
 

the mole

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If you want to pvp in dark souls 3 you'll have to stay around 120 to get opponents, in that scenario almost no roleplaying is being done, everyone is using the same exact shit due to game design, so is it really a role playing game in that case I say no, now when we're just talking about playing through the game and not playing exclusively for a meta level, then sure it's an rpg



Greatswords, pikes, short swords, spells, buffs ... in other words: exactly the same shit! EXACTLY THE SAME SHIT DUE TO GAME DESIGN!!!

fucking moron.

Is call of duty an rpg because I can choose to use an assault rifle or a sniper

Rpg means there is meaningful character building that differentiates and allows you to define your character, has nothing to do with weapon variety, otherwise call of duty would be an rpg
 

the mole

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If you think it's a roleplaying game let's discuss the builds you can use in pvp, 27 strength quality build, the list ends there
I did over 400 hours in DS games, I never once did quality build. Lol. You have no idea what builds other people are playing.

I've tried an anri's sword miracle build with all the buffs, and it was alright, I've also done a havels hollowslayer so I could trade with almost everything in the game

Let me clarify, dark souls 3 isn't really an rpg in practice, but with poise working in ds1 and 2 maybe they functioned more as rpgs
"I've stuck to Steam guide builds only, cause I have no personality of my own, WAAAAH DARK SOULS ISNT AN RPG"

Dude, I don't even know what builds you're describing. I never read about DS lore or builds, I figure out things for myself. And I only meet diverse builds all the time.

If you want to pvp in dark souls 3 you'll have to stay around 120 to get opponents
Funny, I'm still not level 120, I'm 75% through the game, I think I'm around level 90, I had A SHIT TON of pvp encounters so far. At one point I joined the anor londo covenant (blades of the darkmoon?) around level 50-60 and was commonalty summoned to pvp for hours on and on, until I couldn't bear it anymore and unequipped the covenant item.

So yeah. Your posts look like butthurt for some reason.
Everyone is using a quality build, suck my dick retard

By the way there was no steam build guide for a 130 level havels hollowslayer, it was entirely my own creation, it could out trade everything up to ultra great swords, and it had more effective health than quality builds, due to damage resist, also no one is using anri's straight sword builds in pvp, that was also somewhat of a unique build you'll literally never see someone use in 40 days of gameplay, I also did a Pyro with the whip, something I literally never saw anyone else do

Game is full of retards using quality builds, suck me off
 
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Bester

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Everyone is using a quality build, suck my dick retard
I was able to kill 40 people in a row in DS2 in Grave of Saints with a random INT-based build just two weeks ago. Nobody follows steam guides autistically like you do.
 

the mole

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Everyone is using a quality build, suck my dick retard
I was able to kill 40 people in a row in DS2 in Grave of Saints with a random INT-based build just two weeks ago. Nobody follows steam guides autistically like you do.
I don't know if you read my posts, I specifically said ds3 doesn't function as an rpg

I also said ds1 and 2 probably do, I never played them enough to find out
 

Sigourn

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Fun fact: souls games are not the "hardest thing" by virtue of the fact that the game doesn't allow you to perma-fail. You're NEVER forced to restart because every resource can be grinded back and every bad decision can either be out scaled or straight up respec'ed. Compare that to humble old Fallout where you could easily have a "doomed" save slot and you'll see the "super hardcore" souls games are actually quite lenient. You just have to be willing to try again as many times as it takes for your muscle memory to kick in and solve X/Y/Z boss/encounter.

Dark Souls is harder than Fallout. Anyone who complains their Fallout save is "doomed" would be rightly mocked at by the Codex, as it's basic knowledge to keep more than one save slot.

On topic: I think Dark Souls is an RPG. Not just another action game with RPG elements, but an RPG in and of itself. Action RPG, sure, but RPG nonetheless.
 

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