Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dark Souls is absolutely an RPG, explanation

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
Played some of that Sekiro other day wi a mate and I were really surprised that enemies don't hit and attack each other, common tactic in Severance were group up enemies, let em get in way of each others attacks and start attacking each other, then come in to finish em off and get xp. Really ought to implement that.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2019
Messages
1,308
You may say RPGs have "matured" in mid-90s. I would not dispute that, in so far as being "mature" means being an annoying bore and death of youthful creativity. Fact is, for the past 20 years game design is no longer a field of joyful spontaneity, it's a deeply researched scientific field where everyone does the same One True Proved Thing and anything outside the approved Gender Game Design Studies course is considered an atavism we're better off having outlived it. In short, everybody in the field is a fucking Sawyer. I am not lamenting the lack of innovashun or artfaggotry or something - what I mean is both players and developers who were late (past 95 or so) to the party have very rigid stereotypes over how things are supposed to be done, and anything that doesn't fit their trope vision of a Proper Game Design is automatically wrong.
This really resonated with me. To me, the original Dark Souls was the last game that really broke the chains of how things should be done in an RPG or even a videogame in general. Playing DS for the first time was like trying to walk all over again. I had to forget all the rules I knew about videogames and learn this new, mysterious language. Dark Souls came out in the age of huge, "FUCK ME" quest arrows, cinematic explosions and teenage drama masquerading as "high fantasy" and it managed to not only throw all of that out of the window and deliver something more sublime, but was completely unapologetic about it. I am not actually someone who likes very difficult games. I am not a masochist, but everything in DS just felt "right" for the setting and what they were trying to pull off, including the punishing nature of things. Nothing in that game ever felt unnecessary, or out of place, or forced. For the first time since Gothic, the RPG protagonist is not the center of the world. Even though the character would ascend to godhood eventually, that would not happen until the very last cutscene of the game when the big bad was defeated. Playing, not even beating, the game required paying attention and learning. It constantly upended the rules and introduced new elements while subverting the old ones. To top this all off, the game featured one of the most mature and well developed narratives in videogames. No other game tackles the themes of death, reincarnation, enlightenment, and cyclical nature of reality the way Dark Souls does.

Lastly, you can so easily tell how the Dark Souls franchise is a labor of confidence. This is a franchise that locks off huge swathes of content under buried secrets, uncaring that 90% of the player-base is not even going to find it. This just shows how playful and confident the dev team is in their product. Compare that to other mainstream, AAA, action-flick games who constantly take away the camera from you, hell, physically restrict your movement in the world-space through arbitrary means, lest the player misses even a iota of the special effects.
 

Diggfinger

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Messages
1,202
Location
Belgium
-
- Combat is real time without pause, i.e. it's an action-RPG. But there's a lot more RPG than action, e.g. you can make a build that will barely depend on reaction time at all.

Wow really, never noticed that:roll:

Anyway, Souls are awesome and obviously Action-RPGs.
Spent 500h+ on the 1st and 2nd games.

Finally got DS3 (on PC) but after 30hours fatigue starts to kick in. One man can only take so much punishment, and the samey world/setting/gameplay is starting to wear on me
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,946
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Combat is real time without pause,
You didn't play the game, did you?

But there's a lot more RPG than action, e.g. you can make a build that will barely depend on reaction time at all.
That's just nonsense.
Even the "slowest" build still depends a lot on reaction time.
Not nearly as much as a very fast build, but still infinitely more than in any "pure" RPG, which cannot depend on players' physical skills at all (barring being able to click a button to end the turn or pause the game to give orders in peace, maybe).
If it is not the character carrying out the commands of the player, but the player themselves, it is not a pure RPG, but an Action-Something. Quite simple, really.

Not only that, but you could make an RPG (table top or not) that lacked all of those except story
Story is 100% irrelevant for being classified as an RPG.
Many RPGs don't have one, many roguelikes come to mind (which are a sub-category of RPGs). You just start at dungeon level 0, reach dungeon level 100 to win. If there is a story, it is background, an excuse to get going and has no impact at all on gameplay.
And game genres really must be defined according to gameplay.

You are right on track with the idea that computer RPGs have to have something in common with PnP RPGs.
But the essence here is the abstraction. It isn't the player doing any action, it is the character - resolved by the game's systems and/or a real GM.
You don't even need a story for PnP RPG - sure, it would make for one horrible PnP session, but it could be done. What it cannot be done without is the abstraction.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,752
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
Not only that, but you could make an RPG (table top or not) that lacked all of those except story
Story is 100% irrelevant for being classified as an RPG.
Many RPGs don't have one, many roguelikes come to mind (which are a sub-category of RPGs). You just start at dungeon level 0, reach dungeon level 100 to win. If there is a story, it is background, an excuse to get going and has no impact at all on gameplay.
And game genres really must be defined according to gameplay.

You are right on track with the idea that computer RPGs have to have something in common with PnP RPGs.
But the essence here is the abstraction. It isn't the player doing any action, it is the character - resolved by the game's systems and/or a real GM.
You don't even need a story for PnP RPG - sure, it would make for one horrible PnP session, but it could be done. What it cannot be done without is the abstraction.

I argue that story is necessary for a pencil and paper game because my ultimate definition of one is that it is an activity that is at the same time storytelling and playing a game (with the extra restriction that people receive a role to play rather than playing as narrators or what have you; without this restriction you would have a story game).

However, by storytelling, I don't necessarily mean the kind of story you would read in a novel. I agree with you that you could play D&D without much contextualising. You could, if you want, start the game in the dungeon. There doesn't need to be a backstory of how you got there, any kind of specific quest or even a backstory to the dungeon. And you are right, the game would be less interesting this way, but still an RPG. However, it would be an RPG because the game still has a "story", namely, that of the players working their way through the dank and gloomy dungeon. There is still an imaginary gameworld that goes beyond the numeric representation of all the other stuff in game. The players can still solve their problems by using these, maybe they can kill a monster that would otherwise be immune to their weapons by knocking down a statue in the dungeon over it. Maybe they can lure that poisonous blob they found in room 31 into the cauldron in room 57, close the lid and light the fire under it! Etc, this imaginary environment is the story in this case. An RPG without any story in this loose sense would be a completely abstract game and I think it shouldn't be called an RPG, even if its mechanics were completely analogous to GURPS or D&D.

Now, taking this to computer games, my point is that computer games can only do this by approximation. You cold have a dungeon crawler where you could do the examples with statues and the cauldron. But only because a designer thought beforehand of adding that (or even because a physics system is present). But not because the game is reacting to the storytelling, which is impossible with a computer.

Even in computers a game without story in this meaning wouldn't be called an RPG. You mention rogue-likes, which I find interesting because it was a roguelike that helped me see things this way. I used to play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup a lot. In one run, I was playing a summoner and I managed to enter a fortress of some race or other. There were knights, soldiers and whatnot in the fortress, and I was having some difficulty. At one time, I found myself surrounded by zombies and most of my imps dead, so I ran away trying to thin then out so I could summon again. However, as I ran, I began to realise they weren't attacking; and taking a minute to check on them, realised they obeyed me! The zombies had been created by one of my imps (I didn't know they could do that).

The point of the story is that... that is the story! The dungeon crawl, the finding out about a new ability after entering a sinister castle and my character's subsequent quest to conquer the world with demonology powered necromancy ended up being a cool story exactly because DC:SS is (or at least was) a good CRPG.

By the way, I agree that this abstraction of using the PC skills instead of the player's can be helpful tool, but this can't be total otherwise there would be no gameplay. I mean, people are ok with having your aim and strength depend on numbers on the character sheet. But if the battle tactics depended on intelligence and the dialogue options were selected based on moral attributes or whatever, to the point the player didn't have any more input other than setting up his character, it wouldn't be a game at all, but a simulation.

The issue here is that having a character sheet helps a game be more RPG like because those attributes become tools the designer of the game can use to come up with interactivity based on how the character is different, which is obviously something that brings it closer to PnP games. This puts a disadvantage on action games that try to emulate RPGs (beside the aspect that no table top game is an action game). But even with this disadvantage, it is possible to make an action game that still is deeply associated with RPGs. Taking my Bloodlines example, Bloodlines succeeds in being an RPG on a lot of things, but fails badly when it comes to combat (both at being an RPG and at being a good FPS). DS succeeds well in making a good action gameplay that is responsive to the PC the player creates, but eschews RPG in almost all other of its aspects (NPC interaction, exploration, etc). Of the two, I think Bloodlines succeeds at being closer to RPG games more, since a lot more of the game is dominated by non combat stuff, while in DS, while combat is much of the game, it is too limited to allow it to catch up with Bloodlines.
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
Developer
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,023
Now, taking this to computer games, my point is that computer games can only do this by approximation.

To me, that's the definition of a CRPG. That is, a computer approximation of an RPG. In that sense, Dark Souls might not be an RPG in the same way as a tabletop game of D&D is, but it is none the less a CRPG.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,752
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
Now, taking this to computer games, my point is that computer games can only do this by approximation.

To me, that's the definition of a CRPG. That is, a computer approximation of an RPG. In that sense, Dark Souls might not be an RPG in the same way as a tabletop game of D&D is, but it is none the less a CRPG.

Yes! That is my point. Of course Dark Souls is an approximation. Pac-Man is an approximation as well. And Doom. And even x-com.

The only games that aren't approximations to RPGs are either completely abstract or have you play not as a character but as some kind of director (I suppose you could play the sims like that). The usual argument over what is an RPG is that unless you define it in some weird way, you have to accept Doom is an RPG, since you play the role of a Space Marine. The reason I brought up all that stuff about P&P is because I wanted to argue that we must discuss what is an RPG in tiers. When we consider how much like an RPG a game is, the first Fallout is pretty high up there, whereas pac-man is pretty low.

My point in my argument was that Dark Souls actually scores pretty high as an RPG and did something worth of copying. But despite this innovation, good design and despite avoiding some pitfalls JRPGs frequently fall in, I don't think it is correct to say it is on the same tier as, for instance, Bloodlines. And it is a sad state of affairs because possibly the only way it could be on that level would require so much effort from the devs the game would have less effort put into its combat and level design and thus would probably not have been as interesting as it was.
 

RickOmbo

Learned
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
221
The game lacks a dialogue system to be considered a real point and click adventure.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,198
Can you do a complete non-violent play-through?

More seriously: if you remove the RPG elements, does it alter the gameplay in a fundamental way? I think not.
 

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
Patron
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
5,899
Location
The land of ice and snow.
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Of the two, I think Bloodlines succeeds at being closer to RPG games more, since a lot more of the game is dominated by non combat stuff, while in DS, while combat is much of the game, it is too limited to allow it to catch up with Bloodlines.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've read yet.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,946
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Threadly reminder that "Dipshits Souls" is overrated mix of garbage and shit and everyone who like it unironically should feel bad about himself and reconsider his life choices.
You are the sort of person whose only contribution at a a family dinner is throwing up all over the table.
Which, as far as some family dinners go, would actually be a welcome thing to break up the monotony and serve as an interesting story for years to come :lol:

However, it would be an RPG because the game still has a "story", namely, that of the players working their way through the dank and gloomy dungeon. There is still an imaginary gameworld that goes beyond the numeric representation of all the other stuff in game. The players can still solve their problems by using these, maybe they can kill a monster that would otherwise be immune to their weapons by knocking down a statue in the dungeon over it. Maybe they can lure that poisonous blob they found in room 31 into the cauldron in room 57, close the lid and light the fire under it! Etc, this imaginary environment is the story in this case. An RPG without any story in this loose sense would be a completely abstract game and I think it shouldn't be called an RPG, even if its mechanics were completely analogous to GURPS or D&D.
You are thoroughly confusing "story" with context, interactivity, setting, etc. and throwing it all in a pot.

By the way, I agree that this abstraction of using the PC skills instead of the player's can be helpful tool, but this can't be total otherwise there would be no gameplay. I mean, people are ok with having your aim and strength depend on numbers on the character sheet. But if the battle tactics depended on intelligence and the dialogue options were selected based on moral attributes or whatever, to the point the player didn't have any more input other than setting up his character, it wouldn't be a game at all, but a simulation.
That's why I said the player's physical skills must not play a role. Things like reaction time, aiming, the speed of button presses, etc. All the things that are important in Action games are irrelevant in a "pure" RPG (which IS a very rare thing, but most games are hybrids of one type or another).
Obviously, player skill does matter in an RPG, but it is a mental type of skill. Character building, tactical decisions, etc.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,752
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
Of the two, I think Bloodlines succeeds at being closer to RPG games more, since a lot more of the game is dominated by non combat stuff, while in DS, while combat is much of the game, it is too limited to allow it to catch up with Bloodlines.

This might be one of the dumbest things I've read yet.

Well I have obviously not managed to stop writing "RPG games". But outside of that, I fail to see what you find objectionable about what I wrote.

I had earlier said that the combat was Bloodlines' Achilles heel. Yet the other features supported "RPG" features. That is, they supported the creation of a story together with gameplay based on the player's actions. The many ways the game diverges depending on your clan, skills and disciplines are an example of that. The way the ship level worked where you could approach it in different ways is another.

DS on the other hand, focuses its RPG elements on combat, but combat is still too much of just action for it to reach bloodlines level. To be clear, by RPG elements here, I mean for instance how different character builds play in different ways. I also mean how many situations have different ways of being played out. In DS 2, you could use a ballista against the second boss, though that could kill any ally that was melee with him. In the pirates cove, lighting up the place helps you, but it also helps ranged enemies. The decision then is whether you approach stealthily or not.

Ultimately, I think one of the worst problems DS has, as far as RPGs are concerned, is that repetition and memorization gameplay work against it. If you are killing the exact same enemies by the 4th or 5th time already, it is hard to make it seem like anything but an action game. But that said, pretty much everything I wrote is tentative. I admit my analysis may well be faulty, flawed or even entirely wrong. But if so, I would appreciate if it was criticised with more than "dumbest thing I've ever read", since that doesn't help me any in seeing where I might be wrong.
 

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
11,097
Location
USSR
More seriously: if you remove the RPG elements, does it alter the gameplay in a fundamental way?
Good idea. If you throw out quests, stats, leveling, c&c, etc, all that would be left is an empty world with mobs in it, a one dimensional metroidvania with same combat that nobody would play, it wouldn't have enough mechanics to be a game.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,946
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Even the "slowest" build still depends a lot on reaction time.
I was talking about magic users. It's easy mode in PVE.
So was I.
Still depends very much on reaction time, even if it is easier than the others. Slower action gameplay is still action gameplay. Being slower doesn't suddenly turn action into RPG gameplay, that's just absurd.
 

Steezus

Savant
Patron
Joined
Jul 7, 2018
Messages
759
With that said, Dark Souls raised a generation of insufferable faggots who believe souls-like games are the most hardcorest things ever and every game should be compared to dork souls. A lot of those retards ended up in gayming journalism, so the hatred for DaS is at least partially justified.

This might have been true during the Demons/Dark Souls 1 era, because the genre was new and even semi challenging games weren't really a thing at that time. Especially critics wents nuts over that. Nowadays Dark Souls faggots always complain about how the games are not difficult enough (and critics made a total 180 on that, which will never not be hilarious to me).
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
8,752
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
(...snip)

However, it would be an RPG because the game still has a "story", namely, that of the players working their way through the dank and gloomy dungeon. There is still an imaginary gameworld that goes beyond the numeric representation of all the other stuff in game. The players can still solve their problems by using these, maybe they can kill a monster that would otherwise be immune to their weapons by knocking down a statue in the dungeon over it. Maybe they can lure that poisonous blob they found in room 31 into the cauldron in room 57, close the lid and light the fire under it! Etc, this imaginary environment is the story in this case. An RPG without any story in this loose sense would be a completely abstract game and I think it shouldn't be called an RPG, even if its mechanics were completely analogous to GURPS or D&D.
You are thoroughly confusing "story" with context, interactivity, setting, etc. and throwing it all in a pot.

The reason I am throwing all of those in a pot is because, at least in a PnP RPG, all of those have the possibility of being relevant to play in the same way. Consider a simple dungeon crawl set up: The duke has posted a reward for anyone or any group that manages to bring back his daughter that was taken by orc scouts to an abandoned mine in the mountains of Kreg. Possibly, this set up is nothing more than a bit of colour text to help the actions seem to flow from a larger context. But possibly, it is something that matters for the adventure! Maybe one of the characters wants to be part of the nobility and sees this as a way of getting the Duke's favour and someday getting his daughter's hand in marriage. Depending on the setting, if women are able to inherit the title or not, this could be a good idea. Even if they can't, marrying a noble could make the PC lower nobility, which might help him along. Depending on how the DM runs his campaign, the set up may have been arbitrary or an actual result of the orcs moving into the mine a few months earlier.

In other words, by "story" I meant everything that exists in the imaginary world we are playing in. Lumpley (a PnP game designer) used to call this the "clouds", because it looks like the clouds you might see in comics when a character thinks or dreams of something. I don't like that name much, but I suppose simply calling it story is not much less confusing. If you have a better idea of how I should call the whole of all those, I am all ears. But missing that, my point is that it matters little if what is important is the setting, the context for the action, the history of the dungeon itself, its features such as weak walls, stalactites, statues, type of rock, how slippery the rock is when wet, etc. All those things can become part of the tabletop game.

On the computer game, of course, all of this can't happen ad hoc like in a PnP game. The designer needs to plan for these things, whether specifically or with rules for the physics, actions of the PCs or what have you. But the idea is that these can still become an important part of the game and the gameplay in particular; and I believe these are the things that make a game RPG-like.

By the way, I agree that this abstraction of using the PC skills instead of the player's can be helpful tool, but this can't be total otherwise there would be no gameplay. I mean, people are ok with having your aim and strength depend on numbers on the character sheet. But if the battle tactics depended on intelligence and the dialogue options were selected based on moral attributes or whatever, to the point the player didn't have any more input other than setting up his character, it wouldn't be a game at all, but a simulation.
That's why I said the player's physical skills must not play a role. Things like reaction time, aiming, the speed of button presses, etc. All the things that are important in Action games are irrelevant in a "pure" RPG (which IS a very rare thing, but most games are hybrids of one type or another).
Obviously, player skill does matter in an RPG, but it is a mental type of skill. Character building, tactical decisions, etc.

Ok, but you haven't shown that is the case yet (or if you did, it went over my head, apologies in that case). Why is basing a CRPG's mechanics in mental skills such as planning, strategy and mathematics more conductive to role-playing than basing them on reflexes, aim or memorisation? I don't even disagree with the premise; I think action game skills are harder to make work with a CRPG than a strategy gameplay. But I think this needs to be better worked out and explained. Could Dark Souls be more of an RPG if the different "classes" worked more differently in combat? If heavily armoured characters had to rely more on parries and blocks than they already do? What if exploration was made more dependant on your abilities, so that movement abilities might be a thing? Would that help make the game play differently and in this way be more of an RPG? Would it be possible to raise the bar on this front enough that it could be seen as a full fledged RPG despite being action based? I don't know the answers, but I would like to.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,946
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
But the idea is that these can still become an important part of the game and the gameplay in particular; and I believe these are the things that make a game RPG-like.
That's not wrong.
There must be a way for your character to influence the world and for your choices (like build choices) to influence how your character can do that.
But I'd specifically exclude the "story" part. It makes any RPG better, but it's just not necessary for the definition.
The shorter and more concise a definition, the better.

Ok, but you haven't shown that is the case yet (or if you did, it went over my head, apologies in that case). Why is basing a CRPG's mechanics in mental skills such as planning, strategy and mathematics more conductive to role-playing than basing them on reflexes, aim or memorisation?
Because we have to look at where definitions come from (otherwise definitions become useless if they change meaning every two years), in this case clearly PnP RPGs. And, as I said before, in PnP RPGs you have the essential layer of abstraction without which it wouldn't be what it is. The player's influence on the game is a purely cerebral one. And I guess the social component comes in as well in case of PnP.
But what never comes in is any kind of "action"-skill like reflexes/aim/etc. Even in LARP, all the "acting out" is all just a very elaborate way of issuing a character command - it's still not resolved by the player's physical skill (you don't have to be an archer to play an archer) but by whatever governs the result (a DM standing nearby?).
At least I never had to pull off quick reflexes during PnP sessions - my characters had to, though, quite often.

Some elements are lost when going from PnP to computer, such as the social one (until we have AIs as dungeon masters, anyway... ;) ) or the truly infinite possibilities. But the other core elements, the abstraction and mental/cerebral influence, remain.
 

Terenty

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
1,375
Why so much autism whether its rpg or not? A game is not required to be an rpg to be considered worthy.

There are lots of non rpg games that are superior to rpgs ( Zelda a link to the past shits on any rpg Obsidian or Inexile made for example) and vice versa.

Anyone who played Dark Souls from start to finish will recognize it as a masterpiece.
Its a pity all the next installments are inferior in some way.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom