Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

is it worth it on hard?

Its very worth it on every difficulty - provided that you take advantage of it.
- Shatter Defences on all martial characters ASAP.

Optionally you may also take a level of Thug on the Intimidator to make the enemies run away for 1 round - rather messy (and simply bad for aoe aiming), but can be potent if you have a strong ranged presence and reach melees with lots of potential Attacks of Opportunity.

Really, you think it's worth taking on every martial character?

Also, does the Outflank feat function on ranged characters? Who aren't flanking the target, but are attacking a target that is considered flanked?

Edit: according to some googling, Outflank is working on ranged attackers...

Freebooter's Bond is working ranged, not Outflank. There was a bug with Outflank working with Throwing Axes (they were counting as melee) and getting AoOs with them. I thought they'd fixed it. Haven't noticed my off-hand Throwing Axe getting it.

Are you certain that Outflank doesn't work for ranged attacks (such as Loongbow) on flanked targets?

My first post here claimed that it was and I was immediately smacked down so I tested it and I was wrong. I haven’t put it on any ranged toons since so wouldn’t know.

Shouldn’t be too hard to test.

Well, the reason I ask is because I don't have Kingmaker installed right now. But if you've tested it and it didn't work, I guess it doesn't work.

I’ll try it tomorrow and let you know. As for Haplo’s advice, Shatter is a big boost for any character relying on landing iterative attacks. As long as you’re reliably applying Shaken, which is good in its own right (-2 attacks and saves) so you should be.

 

[Haplo]

is it worth it on hard?

Its very worth it on every difficulty - provided that you take advantage of it.
- Shatter Defences on all martial characters ASAP.

Optionally you may also take a level of Thug on the Intimidator to make the enemies run away for 1 round - rather messy (and simply bad for aoe aiming), but can be potent if you have a strong ranged presence and reach melees with lots of potential Attacks of Opportunity.

Really, you think it's worth taking on every martial character?

I'm a firm believer, yes. The higher the difficulty, the more important it becomes. Its the single greatest game-changer.
Although I guess almost-pure Full BAB classes with major AB boosts (mainly Fighter Weapon Training and Slayer Studied Target) can do without. Then again, if a Fighter wants to use Power Attack for example - its very useful. For a Slayer to effortlessly apply Sneak Attacks regardless of party positioning also. So...

In general it should be obligatory particularly for 3/4 BAB classes, even more so when they rely on sneak attacks. Flanking is easy, but sometimes you want to snipe/engage/intercept some enemy, possibly at range, without focusing your whole party on it and/or while protecting your squishies.
And I think it even debuffs enemy CMD - makes your Combat Maneuvers much more likely to land.

Shatter Defenses is BOTH incredibly potent AND incredibly convenient.
Allows for much greater tactical flexibility. And is not limited by any resources...

 

[Pink Eye]

I don't understand this conversation. To me it looks like everybody on Unfair difficulty plays with summons? Then how can we say that summons are weak?

I am not a summoning fan, just saying.

People like to claim this or that is weak. There are multiple effective approaches on any difficulty level. If I don’t feel like trying too hard I know a summons or ten is an easy way through a tough fight. Only something like Unfair Bokken where there are some issues taking him down quickly are an exception.

Cleavers can also be an issue - there difficult terrain/Tanglefoot Bombs are usually better.

Lol I remember Bokken now. That one took a number of reloads.

is it worth it on hard?

Its very worth it on every difficulty - provided that you take advantage of it.
- Shatter Defences on all martial characters ASAP.

Optionally you may also take a level of Thug on the Intimidator to make the enemies run away for 1 round - rather messy (and simply bad for aoe aiming), but can be potent if you have a strong ranged presence and reach melees with lots of potential Attacks of Opportunity.

Really, you think it's worth taking on every martial character?

I'm a firm believer, yes. The higher the difficulty, the more important it becomes. Its the single greatest game-changer.
Although I guess almost-pure Full BAB classes with major AB boosts (mainly Fighter Weapon Training and Slayer Studied Target) can do without. Then again, if a Fighter wants to use Power Attack for example - its very useful. For a Slayer to effortlessly apply Sneak Attacks regardless of party positioning also. So...

In general it should be obligatory particularly for 3/4 BAB classes, even more so when they rely on sneak attacks. Flanking is easy, but sometimes you want to snipe/engage/intercept some enemy, possibly at range, without focusing your whole party on it and/or while protecting your squishies. Shatter Defenses is BOTH incredibly potent AND incredibly convenient.
Allows for much greater tactical flexibility. And is not limited by any resources...

Explains why Ineffect shoves that damn thing in Every. Single. Martial. Build. he creates.

 

[Daidre]

I build all my martials, including archers, with Shatter Defenses and some easy way to apply aoe Shaken - like Bard Song, Dreadful Carnage and Frightful Aspect/Dragon Form later in the game.

From unusual options, Fire Kineticist could get Dreadful Carnage from wild talents around lvl 4 and oneshots with blast often enough to be reliable.

But Fire/Earth Kinecist crazy enough to easily solo Unfair from lvl 13.

 

[Yosharian]

I build all my martials, including archers, with Shatter Defenses and some easy way to apply aoe Shaken - like Bard Song, Dreadful Carnage and Frightful Aspect/Dragon Form later in the game.

So it works with ranged attacks also?

 

[Daidre]

Yes, it was patched in 1.2.0g, works for spells, blasts and range weapons:

• Dreadful Carnage only worked with weapon attacks. Resolution: Now Dreadful Carnage works with spells as well. Pay attention please that it uses dazzling display and intimidates the enemies around the character and not around the target.

Edit: also, Shatter Defenses works for archery.

 

[Yosharian]

Wow that's crazy.

 

[ArchAngel]

Maybe for unfair, I have not yet used it in all my runs on Challenging.
But Unfair is no longer Pathfinder, it is some other game.

 

[Pink Eye]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

 

[Yosharian]

is it worth it on hard?

Its very worth it on every difficulty - provided that you take advantage of it.
- Shatter Defences on all martial characters ASAP.

Optionally you may also take a level of Thug on the Intimidator to make the enemies run away for 1 round - rather messy (and simply bad for aoe aiming), but can be potent if you have a strong ranged presence and reach melees with lots of potential Attacks of Opportunity.

Really, you think it's worth taking on every martial character?

I'm a firm believer, yes. The higher the difficulty, the more important it becomes. Its the single greatest game-changer.
Although I guess almost-pure Full BAB classes with major AB boosts (mainly Fighter Weapon Training and Slayer Studied Target) can do without. Then again, if a Fighter wants to use Power Attack for example - its very useful. For a Slayer to effortlessly apply Sneak Attacks regardless of party positioning also. So...

In general it should be obligatory particularly for 3/4 BAB classes, even more so when they rely on sneak attacks. Flanking is easy, but sometimes you want to snipe/engage/intercept some enemy, possibly at range, without focusing your whole party on it and/or while protecting your squishies.
And I think it even debuffs enemy CMD - makes your Combat Maneuvers much more likely to land.

Shatter Defenses is BOTH incredibly potent AND incredibly convenient.
Allows for much greater tactical flexibility. And is not limited by any resources...

Ok so let's say for a longbow-based Eldritch Archer build, what's more optimal, Weapon Spec & Greater Weapon Focus, or Dazzling + Shatter Defenses?

 

[Cael]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

 

[ArchAngel]

is it worth it on hard?

Its very worth it on every difficulty - provided that you take advantage of it.
- Shatter Defences on all martial characters ASAP.

Optionally you may also take a level of Thug on the Intimidator to make the enemies run away for 1 round - rather messy (and simply bad for aoe aiming), but can be potent if you have a strong ranged presence and reach melees with lots of potential Attacks of Opportunity.

Really, you think it's worth taking on every martial character?

I'm a firm believer, yes. The higher the difficulty, the more important it becomes. Its the single greatest game-changer.
Although I guess almost-pure Full BAB classes with major AB boosts (mainly Fighter Weapon Training and Slayer Studied Target) can do without. Then again, if a Fighter wants to use Power Attack for example - its very useful. For a Slayer to effortlessly apply Sneak Attacks regardless of party positioning also. So...

In general it should be obligatory particularly for 3/4 BAB classes, even more so when they rely on sneak attacks. Flanking is easy, but sometimes you want to snipe/engage/intercept some enemy, possibly at range, without focusing your whole party on it and/or while protecting your squishies.
And I think it even debuffs enemy CMD - makes your Combat Maneuvers much more likely to land.

Shatter Defenses is BOTH incredibly potent AND incredibly convenient.
Allows for much greater tactical flexibility. And is not limited by any resources...

Ok so let's say for a longbow-based Eldritch Archer build, what's more optimal, Weapon Spec & Greater Weapon Focus, or Dazzling + Shatter Defenses?

It is a two feat tax that only works on some enemies and many have low dex and don't care if they are caught flat footed. Fighter should be able to pick both if he wants. I would say that non sneak attack builds don't really need it.

 

[Daidre]

Ok so let's say for a longbow-based Eldritch Archer build, what's more optimal, Weapon Spec & Greater Weapon Focus, or Dazzling + Shatter Defenses?

I really liked 2 Eldritch Archer + 16 Eldritch Scoundrel build that relied on Shatter Defences for ab and sneak. Spell Combat and Rapid Shot is -4 penalty for 2 extra attacks and oversized from Devourer of Metal is extra -2 for chapters 2-3. Shatter Defenses and Debilitating Injury helped it a lot.

In general difference around 5-10 AC between normal and flat-footed, even more for endgame enemies. Heavy Armored mobs is extremely rare in the game, and most creature have an inflated DEX and light/no armor, starting from animals + kobolds in chapter 1 (20+ DEX) to the endgame fey with 30-40 DEX.

 

[Pink Eye]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

 

[Haplo]

Ok so let's say for a longbow-based Eldritch Archer build, what's more optimal, Weapon Spec & Greater Weapon Focus, or Dazzling + Shatter Defenses?

+1 AB and +2 damage vs... well, usually A LOT. That really doesn't sound like a fair competition... provided that your party and playstyle supports Shatter, that is.

Spec and Greater Focus are worth a tiny fraction of Shatter Defenses for me.

 

[Cael]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

I know there are. The numbers bloat is something that I have very little time for, unless it is a JRPG, but that is because the numbers bloat actually means something in a JRPG. In DnD 3.5, numbers bloat merely wreck game balance and is simply retarded.

 

[Pink Eye]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

I know there are. The numbers bloat is something that I have very little time for, unless it is a JRPG, but that is because the numbers bloat actually means something in a JRPG. In DnD 3.5, numbers bloat merely wreck game balance and is simply retarded.

Meh. I like it. 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder are the best kind of systems. The amount of abhorrent munchkin builds you can create, is stupidly fun.

 

[Cael]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

I know there are. The numbers bloat is something that I have very little time for, unless it is a JRPG, but that is because the numbers bloat actually means something in a JRPG. In DnD 3.5, numbers bloat merely wreck game balance and is simply retarded.

Meh. I like it. 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder are the best kind of systems. The amount of abhorrent munchkin builds you can create, is stupidly fun.

As an optimisation exercise and a thought experiment, sure. But if you bring Pun-Pun to my table, you and my DMG will become very intimately acquainted :D

 

[razvedchiki]

Hmm shatter defences seems quite nice to have since i play with closer to tabletop and positioning behind mobs can be a pain sometimes,slayer with shatter can apply sneak even when not flanking.

 

[Pink Eye]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

I know there are. The numbers bloat is something that I have very little time for, unless it is a JRPG, but that is because the numbers bloat actually means something in a JRPG. In DnD 3.5, numbers bloat merely wreck game balance and is simply retarded.

Meh. I like it. 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder are the best kind of systems. The amount of abhorrent munchkin builds you can create, is stupidly fun.

As an optimisation exercise and a thought experiment, sure. But if you bring Pun-Pun to my table, you and my DMG will become very intimately acquainted :D

Good thing we're playing a video game and not table top

 

[Daidre]

Hmm shatter defences seems quite nice to have since i play with closer to tabletop and positioning behind mobs can be a pain sometimes,slayer with shatter can apply sneak even when not flanking.

Slayer also gets Menacing Ranger Style for a Power Attack + Shatter Defenses + Dreadful Carnage so he could pull it off even without mandatory feat tax - Weapon Focus + Dazzling Display.

 

[Cael]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

I know there are. The numbers bloat is something that I have very little time for, unless it is a JRPG, but that is because the numbers bloat actually means something in a JRPG. In DnD 3.5, numbers bloat merely wreck game balance and is simply retarded.

Meh. I like it. 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder are the best kind of systems. The amount of abhorrent munchkin builds you can create, is stupidly fun.

As an optimisation exercise and a thought experiment, sure. But if you bring Pun-Pun to my table, you and my DMG will become very intimately acquainted :D

Good thing we're playing a video game and not table top

*throws DMG at Pink Eye*

 

[Pink Eye]

I haven't used it either on my unfair runs. To be frank, they do have a point. It IS effective.

When it is that obvious, then the term you are looking for is "overpowered".

lol.
Have you not played the game? There are countless things that are "overpowered". Huge difference between effective and overpowered... The fact that I can complete the game without it, means that I don't need it. I simply acknowledged that it is effective, if you build for it.

I know there are. The numbers bloat is something that I have very little time for, unless it is a JRPG, but that is because the numbers bloat actually means something in a JRPG. In DnD 3.5, numbers bloat merely wreck game balance and is simply retarded.

Meh. I like it. 3.5 DnD and Pathfinder are the best kind of systems. The amount of abhorrent munchkin builds you can create, is stupidly fun.

As an optimisation exercise and a thought experiment, sure. But if you bring Pun-Pun to my table, you and my DMG will become very intimately acquainted :D

Good thing we're playing a video game and not table top

*throws DMG at Pink Eye*

I PUNCH DAMAGE WITH MY FISTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!

 

[razvedchiki]

With slayer, you're getting bonus feats (slayer talents) every two levels. That, plus not having to be dex-based, goes a long way.

Yes but to reliably hit with both weapons you need 3 feats which could be used otherwise.
What weapons are you using?

 

[Daidre]

I've played both dual wielding DEX Slayers with kukri (STR version with scimitars or falcatas could be interesting too) and 2-handed STR Slayer with Fauchard/Greataxe.

Slayer 16 + Rogue 4 is nuts either way.