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What classifies a game as a rpg vs as a game with rpg elements?

Nameless Codexian

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Are games like Disco elysium bonafide rpgs or are they be better categorize as games with some rpg elements?

If sometime in the future, Disco Elysium wins the (rpg) GOTY award, will the rpg codex be embroiled in controversy and drama or will its members stand in solidarity; reaching some median level of acceptance for such an award?

What say you?

Where do you stand?

Discuss.
 

jac8awol

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Is Broken Sword on Drugs, otherwise known as Disco Elysium, an RPG? Sure, as much as AoD or Numenera. Who cares, as long as it hits the right notes. As others have said, rather have no combat than shit combat. It's hard to market adventure games these days, that genre seems pretty dead, so rebranding as an RPG absolutely makes sense. Man I wish I could see the look on that face when someone buys DE expecting ... Fallout 76
 

whydoibother

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If the game challenges the player's skills, its an action game.
If the game challenges the character's skills, its a roleplaying game.
And there's a spectrum between those two.

An easy example is to look at mechanics like hacking, lockpicking, fishing, etc in games. If these test the score of the character, and check if the character is good at lockpicking for example, its a hint of an RPG. If they test the player, end check if the player is good at the lockpicking minigame, its a hint of an action game.
Almost always the two are mixed, so you see if your game has more character skill checks, or more player skill checks. And yes, this means that le hardcore elite gamur prepare to die games are more action than RPG, since they check the player more than they check the character. A character that sucks at fighting can still fight and beat all of the game, because the player is good enough to carry that bad character through all the player skill checks.
This also answers the meme questions like "is Call of Duty an RPG, it has stats and perks, etc". Having +10% weapon damage is significant, but what the game checks is how well the player moves around the map and aims, so no, its not an RPG. On the other hand, a level 1 character in World of Warcraft isn't beating a level 50 character, regardless of the skill quality of the players controlling each.
 

Doktor Best

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If the game challenges the player's skills, its an action game.
If the game challenges the character's skills, its a roleplaying game.
And there's a spectrum between those two.

An easy example is to look at mechanics like hacking, lockpicking, fishing, etc in games. If these test the score of the character, and check if the character is good at lockpicking for example, its a hint of an RPG. If they test the player, end check if the player is good at the lockpicking minigame, its a hint of an action game.
Almost always the two are mixed, so you see if your game has more character skill checks, or more player skill checks. And yes, this means that le hardcore elite gamur prepare to die games are more action than RPG, since they check the player more than they check the character. A character that sucks at fighting can still fight and beat all of the game, because the player is good enough to carry that bad character through all the player skill checks.
This also answers the meme questions like "is Call of Duty an RPG, it has stats and perks, etc". Having +10% weapon damage is significant, but what the game checks is how well the player moves around the map and aims, so no, its not an RPG. On the other hand, a level 1 character in World of Warcraft isn't beating a level 50 character, regardless of the skill quality of the players controlling each.

But an overleveled and overgeared can also clear the game with much more ease than underleveled characters. There are areas in the game in which one piece of equipment can have tremendoud impact on the difficulty and the way you can approach the area.

So while i agree with your post overall, i wanted to say that Dark Souls indeed is one of those very few examples that walked the line between those two super-genres so perfectly that you cant really put it in one category without diminishing the other ones influence on it.
 

whydoibother

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rpg is a spectrum, like genders
you can be any rpg you want. you can be a rpg even if you're not
anyone telling you otherwise is a bigot and a nazi
Imagine being so far gone that even reading the word spectrum triggers you into a shitposting frenzy.

But an overleveled and overgeared can also clear the game with much more ease than underleveled characters.
Yes, and at that point the game stops playing like an RPG. When combat is just a chore, and you know for a fact you will win, and you just faceroll forward, its a bad game.

So while i agree with your post overall, i wanted to say that Dark Souls indeed is one of those very few examples that walked the line between those two super-genres so perfectly that you cant really put it in one category without diminishing the other ones influence on it.
Alright. But you can definitely play it as an action game, and avoid the RPG part. You can have a very unskilled character performing great feats of skill, because of the player's skill. This is action game mechanics. I'd say Dark Souls allows you to choose if you are going to play an RPG or an action game. Bethesda's Fallout kinda sorta does it with their manual aiming vs RPG aiming systems.
 

nobre

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A game is called a CRPG when it's main elements are RPG elements. A game is called a game with rpg elements, when it's main features are non-RPG, for example: FPS with RPG elements, strategy RPG's, adventure game with RPG elements, and so on, while still retaining some RPG elements.

Now for Disco Elyseum to be called a CRPG its meat and potatoes, the core if you will, have to be the RPG elements, and not adventure, FPS, strategy and what not. I haven't played DE yet so I can't comment on this specific game.

But what is an RPG element

:philosoraptor:
 

Darth Canoli

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Are games like Disco elysium bonafide rpgs or are they be better categorize as games with some rpg elements?

you can be any rpg you want. you can be a rpg even if you're not

Sure, as much as any stray cat is a lion.

lion-3677582__340.jpg
 
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  1. Abstracted character actions (RNG)
  2. Player driven character development (with mutually exclusive choices)
  3. Exploration
These are the mot reduced and essential qualities to make an RPG. Combat, items, C&C, party, etc. are all nice, but not a necessary and essential component. 1 & 2 are obvious, but exploration is essential because, without it, the game is merely a (generally combat) simulation.

If you have anything beyond these, it becomes a hyphenated RPG. So, if reflexes/skill are involved, it's now an Action RPG. For example, even Deus-Ex is an ARPG. X-COM isn't an RPG, because it doesn't really have exploration. All of its maps exist in a vacuum which have to purpose in a broader narrative other than to be a combat set piece. It's not really different from Mech Warrior in that you're dropped in to specific scenarios. This is different from a game like BG2 where there are towns and territories which are there to be discovered, rather than which only materialize to pursue a specific objective.
 

TwinkieGorilla

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Are games like Disco elysium bonafide rpgs

It depends what you mean by "bonafide rpg". If you mean "Is it faithfully mirroring tabletop gaming, the very father and mother of RPGs as a genre" then yes, emphatically. In my not so humble opinion the further you get away from tabletop RPGs the further from an RPG you are.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
Are games like Disco elysium bonafide rpgs or are they be better categorize as games with some rpg elements?

If sometime in the future, Disco Elysium wins the (rpg) GOTY award, will the rpg codex be embroiled in controversy and drama or will its members stand in solidarity; reaching some median level of acceptance for such an award?

What say you?

Where do you stand?

Discuss.

While I'm not philosophically opposed to essentialism wrt natural phenomena, it's a bit daft with man-made products, since pretty much anything can be anything (e.g. a fridge can be a pissoire) so this kind of question is sort of moot. But I think historically the RPG proper is defined mostly by two things: 1) you engage in a character-driven story (and you try to inhabit the character and think/act as that character would), and 2) the game is designed so that you make choices and face the longer-term consequences of your choices, which may be hidden from you at the time.

That said, there are lots of possible ways of doing those two things, some of which have hived off classical "tropes," which are often just particular abstractions set by the limits of current technology (such as The Inventory, or stat-based point-and-click combat, etc., etc.), which can then be said to be "RPG elements" because historically they've appeared most often in RPG games. But I think unless a game has those two main aspects, I wouldn't be comfortable calling it an RPG, even if it has some of those lesser tropes (e.g. notoriously, an action game with an inventory and points based skill system isn't necessarily an RPG - though it might be, if the two main elements are present).
 
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What classifies a game as a rpg
Fully abstracted task and conflict resolution systems based on character stats, often but not always involving chance.
vs as a game with rpg elements?
Less abstracted systems, driven by direct player input but influenced by character stats. These games are ARPGs most of the time and being hybrids they vary in which direction they lean most towards.

Disco Elysium however seems more to be an RPG-VN hybrid, foregoing free systemic interactions for a more restricted and linear text narrative. Planescape Torment did venture into that direction but it maintained a traditional RPG core underneath, the combat and systemic interactions still being present even if the game was verbose and involved many dialogue skill-checks. I would still say it's an RPG though, just of a more "canned" kind and distanced from its roots by not having combat as a focus.
 

Luckmann

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Are games like Disco elysium bonafide rpgs

It depends what you mean by "bonafide rpg". If you mean "Is it faithfully mirroring tabletop gaming, the very father and mother of RPGs as a genre" then yes, emphatically. In my not so humble opinion the further you get away from tabletop RPGs the further from an RPG you are.
So what you're implying is that Disco Elysium is faithfully mirroring the classic tabletop RPGs?
Because if so, you're fucking stupid, which is a pity, because in the second sentence, you're entirely correct.
 

TwinkieGorilla

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implying is that Disco Elysium is faithfully mirroring the classic tabletop RPGs?
Because if so, you're fucking stupid, which is a pity, because in the second sentence, you're entirely correct.

I'm implying it is faithfully mirroring a tabletop experience. I said nothing about "the classics". But DE is closer to a certain brand of a game of Call of Cthulhu that I would run than any other cRPG I've played, yes. Also go fuck yourself, dick.

Hyperbole be damned, I happen to agree for the most part with the writer/designer of the game.

Kurvitz: Human beings live short lives and in my, let’s say, limited temporal view to reality, I really haven’t played anything as awesome as desktop roleplaying. It’s like books, only bigger, communal, a limitless exercise in imagination. The only problem is: you can’t record it. You can’t bottle it. That, to me, is the greatest thing about video games: video games can at least attempt to catch that lightning in a bottle. Playing Disco Elysium is the closest I’ve ever gotten to experiencing a desktop RPG in a PC game. Now, of course, my idea of desktop roleplaying is of the “immersive storytelling”, not “dungeon romp” variety. But – for that – I think history will agree: Disco Elysium is the closest games have gotten to that immersive desktop roleplaying experience.
 
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Zed Duke of Banville

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Are games like Disco elysium bonafide rpgs or are they be better categorize as games with some rpg elements?
The Codex is a place where Deus Ex (one of the greatest games of all time, to be sure) is categorized as an RPG, so it isn't surprising that Disco Elysium et cetera are also included in the RPG forum. However, if we reject such an overly expansive definition of RPG that includes anything with some RPG elements and instead insist that games, in order to be categorized as an RPG, not stray too far from the holy RPG trinity of character, combat, and exploration aspects, then such games clearly fall outside the realm of the RPG genre. :M
 

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