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Dragon Age Dragon Age: Origins is ten years old today

RRRrrr

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
2,303
Playing as a mage is a completely different experience compared to other classes. I feel like the game was designed around mages and the other classes were an afterthought.

I played with Mage last time and there's way more options and actually interesting options playing as Mage. Rogue still quite interesting because you can backstab and stealth but Warrior is so boring that's painful.

Mage have Arcane Warrior , Blood mage , Shapeshift , Elemental , etcs. The skills are actually fun and feels like you've much more impact than Shield bash.. Taunt.. Useless Triple attack. Just seeing Alistar Skill tree make me want to sleep.
Combining Blizzard and Tempest to get Storm of the Century never got old. Opening the door, seeing a room full of enemies, using the combination and watching everyone die without even fighting them. On Nightmare.

Or just freezing and using stonefist to shatter enemies. Or using sleep+horror to get nightmare for lots of extra damage.

https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Spell_combinations

There are a lot of these combinations, they added some flavour to combat. Also made combat last far shorter due to the sheer damage of area spells mages have. Also, mages being vulnerable actually made using the tank interesting.

Being able to craft infinite potions at the Dalish camp and making party members automatically drink potions when their health drops made playing on nightmare a breeze. I don't think my Alistair ever dealt damage, he was constantly drinking potions.
 
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Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,763
DA:O has some good things, it's just that they're vastly outnumbered by the many mediocre or boring elements.

For instance, there are some entertaining fights. The problem is that you can count them on the fingers of your hands, whereas the boring fights against trash mobs or boring bosses with bloated HP are numberless.

The Dwarf Noble origin story is pretty neat. As opposed to the main scenario of the fucking game, a story so unimaginative it could have been designed by a 10-year old kid.

And sure, most of the characters in the game are stupid and/or annoying, but... err... the dog is fine !
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
It was the ideal solution, and it was handed on a silver platter. There were three possible solutions there: Elves kill werewolves, werewolves kill elves, and you find a way for everyone to live (except Zathrian). You're directly guided to the last one, so you have to go out of your way for people to end up dead. It's dumb.

The intent is that you make decisions based on what your character would do. Some characters would rather have a werewolf army, some would rather just not bother and slaughter the werewolves just to be done with it.

Soon on the Codex:

Skyrim is a classic. I actually like it now because I just didn't know what will follow back then.

I've always liked Skyrim for what it was. I wrote a series of posts about it.
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,763
It was the ideal solution, and it was handed on a silver platter. There were three possible solutions there: Elves kill werewolves, werewolves kill elves, and you find a way for everyone to live (except Zathrian). You're directly guided to the last one, so you have to go out of your way for people to end up dead. It's dumb.

The intent is that you make decisions based on what your character would do. Some characters would rather have a werewolf army, some would rather just not bother and slaughter the werewolves just to be done with it.

By the time I was done with that annoying quest, I wanted to murder everyone, elves and werewolves.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
5,958
Most of the game was developed before EA bought Bioware and it shows, as this was generally a decent game albeit very similar in structure to previous mid-2000s Bioware games ala KOTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect. To be honest I'd happily replay this game than have to play any of the games Bio has produced while fully under EA's stewardship.
 

Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,499
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Compared to what came after, DA:O was actually enjoyable. The last hurrah of Bioware.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
The intent is that you make decisions based on what your character would do. Some characters would rather have a werewolf army, some would rather just not bother and slaughter the werewolves just to be done with it.
That's a really shitty excuse. It's obvious that the proper way of handling the situation would've been to guide you into exterminating the werewolves, with a counter-offer from the werewolves being to exterminate the elves, and the ideal solution being to figure out a way to lift the curse. Instead you are directly brought to the ideal solution making the other choices dumb. Yes, at least you have choices, but now there is little reason to pick them. It's one of those things you do when you're lazy or just afraid the audience is too casual to figure it out on their own. With the final version of the Dalish subplot they didn't really need to put in any werewolf-specific content. They just called it a day and moved on.

A similar problem exists with the Mage circle. You're obviously doing the Templar route by purging the Circle of Magi, but as long as you don't get the Mages at the end killed, you automatically get treated as siding with Mages and get Mage support for your army. Now siding with Templars requires deliberately convincing Templars to kill Mages (or being dumb enough to let all the Mages die in the final bossfight, but if you're that dumb the increased difficulty from the Mages being turned into abominations will probably make you lose the fight anyway) after you already saved them, which makes it an evil option. But it would've been too much effort for Bioware to try to create an actual Mage route where you side with the rebels so they simplified it into one path with two outcomes where only one of them makes sense.

The biggest case of an aborted questroute though is when Bioware scrapped the Dwarf Noble route through the Orzammar plotline. It's really fucking obvious that there should've been one, but in this case it was an instance of retarded "balance" - you see some heads at Bioware decided it would too "unfair" to the non-Dwarf Noble players for there to be an exclusive questpath for Dwarf Nobles (and probably that it'd be too much effort for situational content) so they axed it, despite the entire Dwarf Noble Origin being one long setup for it. Fake C&C design helped lead to this kind of shit, where BioWare decided it's better to do one set of content with superficial variations than to do two sets where appropriate, and it was a much worse game for it. If they were to have done these questpaths properly instead of half-assing shit constantly, many people would've rated the game more highly.

Anyway, shit like this (and the horribly massive amount of bugs/broken content) is why I consider DAO an unfinished game. Qwinn made a fixpack that has well over 800 fixes, and that's without touching the combat fixpack for all the stupid bugs there too.
 
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Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
35,656
That's a really shitty excuse. It's obvious that the proper way of handling the situation would've been to guide you into exterminating the werewolves, with a counter-offer from the werewolves being to exterminate the elves, and the ideal solution being to figure out a way to lift the curse. Instead you are directly brought to the ideal solution making the other choices dumb. Yes, at least you have choices, but now there is little reason to pick them. It's one of those things you do when you're lazy or just afraid the audience is too casual to figure it out on their own. With the final version of the Dalish subplot they didn't really need to put in any werewolf-specific content. They just called it a day and moved on.
You're supposed to role play.

The biggest case of an aborted questroute though is when Bioware scrapped the Dwarf Noble route through the Orzammar plotline. It's really fucking obvious that there should've been one, but in this case it was an instance of retarded "balance" - you see some heads at Bioware decided it would too "unfair" to the non-Dwarf Noble players for there to be an exclusive questpath for Dwarf Nobles (and probably that it'd be too much effort for situational content) so they axed it, despite the entire Dwarf Noble Origin being one long setup for it. Fake C&C design helped lead to this kind of shit, where BioWare decided it's better to do one set of content with superficial variations than to do two sets where appropriate, and it was a much worse game for it. If they were to have done these questpaths properly instead of half-assing shit constantly, many people would've rated the game more highly.

It's possible this was something planned but cut early because they had no time to properly test it. :M

Anyway, shit like this (and the horribly massive amount of bugs/broken content) is why I consider DAO an unfinished game. @Qwinn made a fixpack that has well over 800 fixes, and that's without touching the combat fixpack for all the stupid bugs there too.

This is all big RPGs really.
 
Joined
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Italy
come on guys, cut the edginess and be honest. dao wasn't that bad, its biggest sins are the ungodly amount of trash mobs, the fade and some uninteresting loot. after all even baldur's gate had some needlessly long dungeon and lots of items were "sword of sameyness +1". yes, combat was simplified but quick, lore showed some potential and writing was bearable, without renegade/paragon bullshittery or omnipresent [stat] automatic wins during dialogues, which thus required your own wits to be brought toward the end you were trying to get. i remember quite different possible outcomes just from the possessed kid questline.
and if you want to add context to this game, dao came after a decade of draught and famine and wasteland and devastation and oh god we will all die. plenty of reasons to name it best game of its year.
 
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Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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大同
The biggest case of an aborted questroute though is when Bioware scrapped the Dwarf Noble route through the Orzammar plotline. It's really fucking obvious that there should've been one, but in this case it was an instance of retarded "balance" - you see some heads at Bioware decided it would too "unfair" to the non-Dwarf Noble players for there to be an exclusive questpath for Dwarf Nobles (and probably that it'd be too much effort for situational content) so they axed it, despite the entire Dwarf Noble Origin being one long setup for it. Fake C&C design helped lead to this kind of shit, where BioWare decided it's better to do one set of content with superficial variations than to do two sets where appropriate, and it was a much worse game for it. If they were to have done these questpaths properly instead of half-assing shit constantly, many people would've rated the game more highly.

It's possible this was something planned but cut early because they had no time to properly test it. :M
Eh, being the first game of a franchise, it does not detract from the overall experience. I'm more sour with the scraping of certain subplots in The Witcher 3 (the scrapping of Iorveth and the plague ordeal and of the Wild Hunt invasion of Novigrad, plus the whole Radovid assassination plot as it was implemented).
 

Chunkyman

Augur
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
159
I thought some of the ideas with Dwarves being the dominant race historically and then getting 99% wiped out, and having their massive, continent-wide network of cities and highways underground that are now largely forgotten and inhabited by the Darkspawn was a really cool idea. Sort of like Moria in the LOTR except it was inclusive of their entire civilization, not just one particular city. I think that gives a lot of potential for lorebuilding and exploration, and even the Orzammar/Deep Roads section of the game was really interesting. The sad part is that Dragon Age 2 was genuinely garbage and Bioware is just an EA husk now so the series has no future.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
I played with Mage last time and there's way more options and actually interesting options playing as Mage. Rogue still quite interesting because you can backstab and stealth but Warrior is so boring that's painful.
Yep. Class balance in DAO sucks horribly. Warriors have basically no interesting abilities, and you have to lean on Specializations to try to get a bit of it. Reaver can give you long a str-based CC (Frightening Appearance) and Champion can give you a str-based AoE knockdown. If you are a weirdo you can make a willpower-based Warrior and use the Templar's Holy Smite for a 10 second aoe stun (mental resistance check vs willpower), in which case you want Berserker as your second specialization so you can do something useful with all that Stamina and drop a Final Blow with it (and also because you'll need the damage Berserk gives you). You can also vary it up slightly by giving your Warrior a rank of Poison-Making and having him use grenades and poisons. I recommend putting one rank of Poison-Making on everyone for grenade spam, really. Trap-Making is a great skill too but Rogues are the best for that, because of Stealthy Item Use. And traps get fucked over by cutscene battles that just reposition fucking everyone.

Two-Handed gives you Pommel Strike for one knockdown and Sweep for an AoE hit and knockdown, all of it str-based on a tree with only str-requirements, so it works decently with Champion for a third str-based AoE knockdown and Reaver for a str-based Frightening Appearance on top so you can run a pure (100%) strength build with numerous CCs, but both of those specializations have annoyingly high level requirements, so get Reaver first for Frightening Appearance at level 12 and save up talent points for Champion second for Motivate at level 14 and Superiority at level 16. Stunning Blows also gives you a 50% chance of stunning an enemy when you crit (Tooltip lied: It isn't every hit, only every crit) if it isn't stunned already. Sten is a natural pick for this if you have the Two Specializations Sten mod so he isn't down a spec from everyone else just because Bioware forgot to give him a spec (and racial stats). Loghain sucks for this because his automatic stats are fucking shit, despite having the Champion spec. But early on Dog is your best pick for a str-based Warrior with some CC. On the console version it even has access to the Warrior-exclusive talents. In Awakening, Warriors can actually make decent archers by abusing Spirit Warrior, but Pinning Shot is a cunning-based check so it works better for Bard Archer Rogues with Lethality.

Rogues generally have more abusable shit since a pure Cunning Rogue will do a 3 second AoE stun every 4 seconds (make two Cunning Rogues and you have AoE permastun) using the Bard's Captivating Song. The Ranger pets also come with more abilities than show up on the UI, so if you set up their AI carefully when the pet spawns, they will use all kinds of shit. Stealthy Item Use also means they can just plant traps on enemies without trouble or throw grenades without breaking stealth. But the weapon trees are still lame.

Mage have Arcane Warrior, Blood Mage, Shapeshifter, Elemental, etcs. The skills are actually fun
Shapeshifter is actually pretty shitty. It plays to none of a Mage's strengths and has basically zero synergy with the class in general. The animal form abilities aren't very good either, and the animal form is dispellable so it's unusable inside a Glyph of Neutralization too. Arcane Warrior is also retarded. It is trash when it comes to actually hitting things, but overpowered when it comes to making your Mage hard to kill. So the Arcane Warrior is not a Warrior. It's a Tank Mage, best played with a staff in hand. Blood Mage and Spirit Healer are potent though. Elemental is a bit on the weak side of what a Mage can do. Cone of Cold is about as much as you need and then you want to go for abilities like the Glyph tree or Mana Clash or Waking Nightmare or Forcefield or curses. Grease Fire used to be pretty damn strong but they massively stealth nerfed it in 1.04, probably because of the Tower of Ishal fight where Grease Fire wrecked noobs that didn't understand they shouldn't stand in a fire.

and feels like you've much more impact than Shield bash.. Taunt.. Useless Triple attack. Just seeing Alistar Skill tree make me want to sleep.
Yeah, this is the result of a shitty design where you think of the Warriors as the guys who just hit shit. They don't even have the tricks WoW's Warriors do, and DAO is blatantly stealing cues from it. So you've got a mess of cooldowns for variations on generic abilities to hit shit. Another problem was that they cut corners and didn't implement a root debuff, so instead they're all just stuns, making Pinning Shot and Claw Traps into some stupid things. Claw Traps especially.

The triple attack is often extra useless because DAO is real-time, not turn-based, so with the animation speed you actually don't really get anything out of the extended attack routine unless you have a mod that buffs the animation speed. Assault for instance does 4 attacks with +8 attack, +3 armor penetration, but -40% damage. You're better off just auto-attacking. Shield Pummel on the other hand gives you 3 attacks with normal damage, +10 attack, +2 armor penetration, and a decent stun. Overpower gives you 3 autocrits (the tooltip lies about only the last attack being a crit) and knockdown and daze debuff (-5 attack and -5 defense, again: tooltip lies).

You're supposed to role play.
Sounds like LARPing to me. There is no good reason to side with Werewolves unless you really just want them for your army. You're not presented any reason at all to do it, so you're really just picking mass murder for shits and giggles, because you felt like it.

It's possible this was something planned but cut early because they had no time to properly test it. :M
Nope. This wasn't "enslave nations with necromancy" grade bullshit we knew was never going to happen. This stuff was cut very late. It was planned out pretty heavily. The Orzammar questline is very blatantly a continuation of the events of the Dwarf Noble questline, and the Dwarf Noble makes perfect sense as a third contender. You were flagrantly set up for a revenge plot and even promo pictures reinforced that:
Dwarf-Noble-1280x1024.jpg


All the way into 2009 they were still selling the Dwarf Noble revenge route as part of the game. People looked forward to it. People were disappointed.

This is all big RPGs really.
Mostly Obsidian/Troika/Interplay and Bioware (especially under EA) really. There are some pretty massive bugs in DAO and the patches were extremely half-assed. Instead of pumping out really shitty DLC and that Awakening expansion cruft, they should've just worked on adding in missing content (even if they had to bill it as DLC) and fixing the game's numerous issues. You need mods to play DAO, honestly. Just to fix the broken content and all the mechanics that don't work properly.
 
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Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
10,538
Location
Nottingham
I played with Mage last time and there's way more options and actually interesting options playing as Mage. Rogue still quite interesting because you can backstab and stealth but Warrior is so boring that's painful.
Yep. Class balance in DAO sucks horribly. Reaver can give you long a str-based CC (Frightening Appearance) and Champion can give you a str-based AoE knockdown. If you are a weirdo you can make a willlpower-based Warrior and use the Templar's Holy Smite for a 10 second aoe stun, in which case you want Berserker as your second specialization so you can do something useful with all that Stamina and drop a Final Blow with it (and also because you'll need the damage Berserk gives you). You can also vary it up slightly by giving your Warrior a rank of Poison-Making and having him use grenades and poisons. I recommend putting one rank of Poison-Making on everyone for grenade spam, really.

Trap-Making is a great skill too but Rogues are easily the best for that, because of Stealthy Item Use. And traps get fucked over by cutscene battles that just reposition fucking everyone.

Mage have Arcane Warrior, Blood Mage, Shapeshifter, Elemental, etcs. The skills are actually fun
Shapeshifter is actually pretty shitty. It plays to none of a Mage's strengths and has basically zero synergy with the class in general. The animal form abilities aren't very good either, and the animal form is dispellable so it's unusable inside a Glyph of Neutralization too. Arcane Warrior is also retarded. It is trash when it comes to actually hitting things, but overpowered when it comes to making your Mage hard to kill. So the Arcane Warrior is not a Warrior. It's a Tank Mage. Blood Mage and Spirit Healer are potent though. Elemental is a bit on the weak side of what a Mage can do. Cone of Cold is about as much as you need and then you want to go for utility abilities like Mind Blast and

and feels like you've much more impact than Shield bash.. Taunt.. Useless Triple attack. Just seeing Alistar Skill tree make me want to sleep.
Yeah, this is the result of a shitty design where you think of the Warriors as the guys who just hit shit. They don't even have the tricks WoW's Warriors do, and DAO is blatantly stealing cues from it. So you've got a mess of cooldowns for variations on generic abilities to hit shit. Another problem was that they cut corners and didn't implement a root debuff, so instead they're all just stuns, making Pinning Shot and Claw Traps into some stupid things. Claw Traps especially.

The triple attack is often extra useless because DAO is real-time, not turn-based, so with the animation speed you actually don't really get anything out of the extended attack routine unless you have a mod that buffs the animation speed. Assault for instance does 4 attacks with +8 attack, +3 armor penetration, but -40% damage. You're better off just auto-attacking. Shield Pummel on the other hand gives you 3 attacks with normal damage, +10 attack, +2 armor penetration, and a decent stun. Overpower gives you 3 autocrits (the tooltip lies about only the last attack being a crit) and knockdown and daze debuff (-5 attack and -5 defense, again: tooltip lies). Two-Handed gives you Pommel Strike for one knockdown and Sweep for an AoE hit and knockdown, all of it str-based on a tree with only str-requirements, so it works decently with Champion for a third str-based AoE knockdown and Reaver for a str-based Frightening Appearance on top so you can run a pure strength build with numerous CCs. Stunning Blows also gives you a 50% chance of stunning an enemy when you crit (Tooltip lied: It isn't every hit, only every crit) if it isn't stunned already. But early on Dog is your best pick for a Warrior that does more than just hit shit. On the console version it even has access to the Warrior-exclusive talents. In Awakening, Warriors can actually make decent archers by abusing Spirit Warrior, but Pinning Shot is a cunning-based check so it works better for Bard Archer Rogues with Lethality.

Rogues generally have more abusable shit since a pure Cunning Rogue will do a 3 second AoE stun every 4 seconds (make two Cunning Rogues and you have AoE permastun). The Ranger pets also come with more abilities than show up on the UI, so if you set up their AI carefully when the pet spawns, they will use all kinds of shit. Stealthy Item Use also means they can just plant traps on enemies without trouble or throw grenades without breaking stealth.

You're supposed to role play.
Sounds like LARPing to me. There is no good reason to side with Werewolves unless you really just want them for your army. You're not presented any reason at all to do it, so you're really just picking mass murder for shits and giggles, because you felt like it.

It's possible this was something planned but cut early because they had no time to properly test it. :M
Nope. This stuff was cut very late. It was planned out pretty heavily. The Orzammar questline is very blatantly a continuation of the events of the Dwarf Noble questline, and the Dwarf Noble makes perfect sense as a third contender. You were flagrantly set up for a revenge plot and even promo pictures reinforced that:
Dwarf-Noble-1280x1024.jpg


All the way into 2009 they were still selling the Dwarf Noble revenge route as part of the game. People looked forward to it. People were disappointed. This wasn't "enslave nations with necromancy" type bullshit.

This is all big RPGs really.
Mostly Obsidian/Troika/Interplay and Bioware (especially under EA) really.

I fuck THRIVE on DA:O. But I have to say, most of those points are very, very valid.

I'd have to say I don't think that it matters that much. I think there's enough of a good game to play through as either a casting mage or duel wield rogue for an awesome experience. But those trying the game should definitely take some of your points into consideration.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Bethesda just has a way of slipping my mind when we're talking about RPG developers. They're too far below the bar to even register on my radar, since I hardly consider their shit to be valid games. But sure, we can count them as another dev with terrible issues relating to bugs.

Piranha Bytes and Owlcat are probably still much better than those three though. Not because Piranha Bytes and Owlcat are doing good, but because Obsidian/Troika/Interplay, Bioware, and Bethesda are really bad when it comes to bugs and broken/unfinished shit.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
What they should have done is have the classic warriors and rogues when not using the specializations, then pile on the specializations that use different stats or combination of stats. Basically make every spec have the same impact as Arcane Warrior. THAT would've justified the 3-class trinity.
 

Sharpedge

Prophet
Joined
Sep 14, 2018
Messages
1,061
For me the most notable aspect of DA:O is that it is a great place to introduce people to the genre who have never played CRPGs before. I have some friends that asked me why I enjoy these games and at first I tried introducing them to the Gold Box games, zero interest. Then I tried suggesting BG and BG 2, it still didn't "click" for them. I then recommended DA:O, for some reason this game really clicked with them and after playing it, they then went on to try other games in the genre, eventually going back to play those games which at first they didn't have any interest in. It seems like it isn't too streamlined to the point where it is no longer recognizable from the games that it is rooted in, but it is streamlined enough so that someone who has never touched the genre before who tries it today can still figure out why the genre is enjoyable.
 

Vapid

Learned
Joined
Jan 18, 2017
Messages
72
I remember I played the game as soon as it came out (or some short while after) and found it OK-ish. Nothing extraordinary, but not that bad either. I even made some progress in the game, but then I came across some merchant or something who came into my camp (I don't recall the details) and started a conversation with him which was clearly a side-quest hook. When it finally came to making a decision whether to accept the quest or not a window popped up asking me to buy the DLC which contained the quest. I was like: "You have got to be fucking kidding me! What is this shit?" I was so pissed at the way the DLC was incorporated into the game (basically an in-game advertisement) that I dropped DA:O immediately and never touched it again. Fuck EA and fuck Dragon Age.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Warden's Keep. The DLC salesman shit was infamous. Only EA could consider garbage like that to be a good idea. Honestly all the DLC in DAO was fucking terrible, with the exception of the Stone Prisoner which was just a shitty form of gutting game content to turn it into "free" DLC so second-hand copies are fucked. Promo items also fucked the difficulty curve. Not that there was much of one, but still. Promo and DLC items made it worse. EA was really on the fast-track of wrecking brand value in order to make a quick buck.

Nowadays it doesn't garner as much controversy because anyone trying out DAO is getting some Ultimate Edition shit and EA has fully unlocked all the DLC for free many years later, because they couldn't be fucked to keep running the old systems and no one was buying it anymore. So the salesman problem isn't as noticeable when they actually lead to the DLC in question instead of telling you to go buy DLC.
 
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Starwars

Arcane
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Jan 31, 2007
Messages
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Location
Sweden
Oh yeah, how did that happen again? Did EA take over Bioware in the middle of the development?
 

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