Death Stranding Director's Cut - Kojima's post-apocalyptic deliveryman simulator

[Space Satan]

Watched several streamers and several streamers already spent, like, 15-20 minutes trying to climb a mountain while it was obvious that you can go around that mountain peak and need to walk 100 meters more but the navigation line pass through the peak so they have to prove their dominance against the Nature.
Kojima perfectly discovered the hunger of Skyrim playerbase.

 

[taxalot]

I guess it's just a divisive game.

Canard PC, which is a trustable review source if any, gave it a surprising 9/10, something they rarely give.
It is described as "something more than a high budget walking simulator", which are now a category of their own. I guess some people expected something different. The focus of the review is on the connection with the baby, the slow paced discovery of the world.

The criticisms I have seen in this thread are about its slowness, which is not a fault as far as I'm concerned, and its repetitiveness which remains to be seen about how much it hinders the experience. (RPGs are the essence of repetitivity FFS.)

A game is sometimes more than the sum of its parts.

 

[Grauken]

Most of the high score reviews I've seen try to bend themselves into pretzels justifying their high score for what is clearly an unfun game, by calling it unique, high art, etc etc.

 

[taxalot]

Most of the high score reviews I've seen try to bend themselves into pretzels justifying their high score for what is clearly an unfun game, by calling it unique, high art, etc etc.

Should high art be fun?

 

[Grauken]

Most of the high score reviews I've seen try to bend themselves into pretzels justifying their high score for what is clearly an unfun game, by calling it unique, high art, etc etc.

Should high art be fun?

Games should be fun. I'm not looking for high art, but if a game is fun and also high art, I don't mind. If somebody is looking for high art in games and doesn't mind whether the game is fun or not, no skin off my back, but they shouldn't try to argue in bad faith that its a good game because its high art, while trying as hard as possible not to address whether its a fun game.

 

[Black]

Most of the high score reviews I've seen try to bend themselves into pretzels justifying their high score for what is clearly an unfun game, by calling it unique, high art, etc etc.

Should high art be fun?

Games can never be art.

Here's how you can get the Death Stranding experience TODAY
1. Play Arcanum
2. Never use fast travel

 

[taxalot]

Games should be fun.

Why ?

No, seriously, why ?

Because they're games ?

At this point, the word "video games" encompass so many things that it has become meaningless. It is an outdated naming convention for any kind of interactive vaguely entertaining experience on a screen. "Games" is Tetris but also Depression Quest. Games is Fifa Soccer and Telltale The Walking Dead. Games is Arcanum and Minecraft in building mode without mobs.

Shadow of the Colossus was hardly any fun. It was slow. Shenmue was hardly any fun, it was boring in most places. Both games are absolutely fascinating however. Contemplative "games" are a thing. Games used as a new form of storytelling with hardly any gameplay are also a thing. There is absolutely no "fun" to be had in Disco Elysium besides the funny writing and some surprising skill checks, yet mostly everyone agrees it sets the bar very high and it's an enjoyable experience. From everything I read, Death Stranding is fairly similar in that respect.

Should books be fun ? Why hold interactive experiences to a different standard ?

 

[Grauken]

I don't usually add "In my opinion..." to everything I say, because most people would understand that it's obvious that this is my opinion, not a physical law of nature. And yes, fun is something highly subjective. But all the reviews I read, only very few gave me the impression the people who played them found them fun to play moment-to-moment, most of the high scoring reviews tried to argue with high art, or uniqueness why they gave them a good score. Many of those still mentioned that the game is pretty slow, tedious for long stretches.

I actually agree with you that some people like experiences that might not especially fun to a lot of people. I like blobbers, and even on the codex there are lots of people who don't find that a fun investment of time. But when even the people who value something for its experience don't seem to really enjoy it, maybe that means its an interesting game with lots of ideas but it hasn't entirely managed to quite meld those ideas into mechanics to make it "fun" moment-to-moment and not just in an abstract way.

That said, lets wait for the general public reaction to it, I'm really interested to see how the game will sell at large, and then how well the general gaming public at large will think about it.

 

[cvv]

Most of the high score reviews I've seen try to bend themselves into pretzels justifying their high score for what is clearly an unfun game, by calling it unique, high art, etc etc.

This. Also I haven't seen a SINGLE review praising the actual focus point of the game - the story and the characters. Not a single one. All praise always concerns the game as a whole, as a unique experience, original, brave yadda yadda. While there are at least a few reviews saying the narrative and characters are insufferably awful.

Kojima's writing was cripplingly retarded in MGS5 too, bordering on straight-up unbearable, but at last the gameplay was phenomenal. In DS the gameplay seems to be meh at best. I can't see myself picking the game up anytime soon. Maybe in a few years, for a few bucks at a key store. Ofc by then the online element will be long dead.

 

[Black]

http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

 

[Child of Malkav]

So you just deliver stuff, build stuff and maintain that stuff otherwise it goes away: the game.
And this guy thinks he created a new genre.
Fuck this Earth.

 

[Tehdagah]

Shadow of the Colossus was hardly any fun. It was slow. Shenmue was hardly any fun, it was boring in most places. Both games are absolutely fascinating however. Contemplative "games" are a thing. Games used as a new form of storytelling with hardly any gameplay are also a thing. There is absolutely no "fun" to be had in Disco Elysium besides the funny writing and some surprising skill checks, yet mostly everyone agrees it sets the bar very high and it's an enjoyable experience. From everything I read, Death Stranding is fairly similar in that respect.

Shadow of the Colossus was fun. Best bosses ever.

 

[J_C]

So you just deliver stuff, build stuff and maintain that stuff

Planescape Torment: So are just going around, reading and sometimes killing stuff.
Age of Empires: So you just build stuff, produce stuff and kill units.
Unreal Tournament: So you just run around, pick up stuff and kill others.

See, it's not that hard!

 

[taxalot]

Shadow of the Colossus was hardly any fun. It was slow. Shenmue was hardly any fun, it was boring in most places. Both games are absolutely fascinating however. Contemplative "games" are a thing. Games used as a new form of storytelling with hardly any gameplay are also a thing. There is absolutely no "fun" to be had in Disco Elysium besides the funny writing and some surprising skill checks, yet mostly everyone agrees it sets the bar very high and it's an enjoyable experience. From everything I read, Death Stranding is fairly similar in that respect.

Shadow of the Colossus was fun. Best bosses ever.

Yet the game was designed with huge moments of emptiness between bosses, and those moments are as great as the boss fight themselves.

For a reason.

I have not played Death Stranding, but it is possible it is the same case. Warn in your written review that the experience is not for everyone, but that you personally enjoyed it and recognize its value.

 

[Tehdagah]

Shadow of the Colossus was hardly any fun. It was slow. Shenmue was hardly any fun, it was boring in most places. Both games are absolutely fascinating however. Contemplative "games" are a thing. Games used as a new form of storytelling with hardly any gameplay are also a thing. There is absolutely no "fun" to be had in Disco Elysium besides the funny writing and some surprising skill checks, yet mostly everyone agrees it sets the bar very high and it's an enjoyable experience. From everything I read, Death Stranding is fairly similar in that respect.

Shadow of the Colossus was fun. Best bosses ever.

Yet the game was designed with huge moments of emptiness between bosses, and those moments are as great as the boss fight themselves.

For a reason.

I have not played Death Stranding, but it is possible it is the same case. Warn in your written review that the experience is not for everyone, but that you personally enjoyed it and recognize its value.

You still had to explore during these 'moments of emptiness'. But they weren't as good as the bosses.

 

[Child of Malkav]

So you just deliver stuff, build stuff and maintain that stuff

Planescape Torment: So are just going around, reading and sometimes killing stuff.
Age of Empires: So you just build stuff, produce stuff and kill units.
Unreal Tournament: So you just run around, pick up stuff and kill others.

See, it's not that hard!

Your over simplification has no basis.
My basis was the review posted 2 pages back which clearly states in the first few paragraphs that pretty much all you do is explore and that the the "fun" starts 10-15 hours in. And that the the definition of "fun" in this case happens to coincide with tedium. Which leads to boredom. Perhaps you remember TOW being guilty of causing this feeling. What was the reaction to that?
Sure, instead of walking around on foot you eventually get to drive some vehicles. And fight some guys who are all high due to the future equivalent of today's "likes". Yeah.
And falling around realistically while carrying stuff (as you can see in the gif gif contained in the review) and picking back up the stuff you dropped is............retarded, not new nor revolutionary, nor does it create a new genre. It reminds of GTA 4 where added realism wasn't fun, it was dumb as it lead to useless scenarios if not outright infuriating where Niko would fall to the ground the moment someone touched him, or if you turned him around too fast.
Fuck that.

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

So nobody is getting this game tomorrow? I'll do, so expect some impressions about it. If this results to be a complete trainwreck I want to be in the first seat, on VIP

 

[Gerrard]

No Man's Sky, but now with Hollywood C list celebs.

 

[Curratum]

Fuck me, I just watched both endings on Youtube, the game is literally Evangelion, without any real editing, significant changes or subtlety.

 

[Curratum]

Now I also watched the "true" and "secret" endings and I can without a shadow of a doubt say that this game is the most pretentious, most ridiculous piece of work that has ever been pushed into the gaming medium. Lynch's movies and Twin Peaks S3 seem tame by comparison.

The levels of ridiculous and nonsensical I saw make the DHL gameplay seem like a pretty good time, in comparison.

 

[bataille]

Lots of people unable to enjoy art ITT.

A game doesn't have to be fun to be good. It does not even need to be a game.

This is true, but not when the game in question is 90 hours long. After a certain threshold of hours, all culture breaks down, and your survival instinct kicks in. Avantgarde proper is rarely repetitive (stuff that rejects the classical structure and composition, like the nouveau roman or automatic novel, is never as torturous as this game sounds to be), and you can easily maintain interest despite not having a template for your perception of the thing.

Personally, I can't wait for Kojima to begin making real films. I like his wackiness, but it needs to be distilled and freed of all the obviously non-essential agents like... ahem... "gameplay." Although I pity him already: stuff like his is released in the film world by the dozen every year (in good years anyway). I hope he doesn't mind all the 50s from the critics, a lack of attention, and his career's inevitable fade to black...

 

[taxalot]

It is no wonder that a game appealing to sensibilities does not appeal to incels whose idea of an interesting conversation includes the values of deterministic systems in RPGs or how many hours you should spend at character creation.

 

[Van-d-all]

Looks like another highly controversial game, but the issue of tedious, almost menial gameplay has always been a weird one. On one hand it seems obvious that games should be "fun", but on the other, lengthy milsim missions (Arma, Silent Hunter), jRPG grind or repetitive tasks in Detroit:BH all have their reasons to be as they are. In era where games become fine tuned to satisfaction metrics and emphasize positive feedback & constant gratification instead of meaningful gameplay loops, I have a feeling that there's more to this than just one out of context boring gif.

 

[DeepOcean]

There are two visions of fun, objective fun and subjective fun, the objective fun says that for something to be fun, it needs to do something in particular (positive feedback, skinner box rewards, flow state between challenge and skill and etc) and subjective fun where fun is completely dependent of the perspective of the person, if you see something you think it is of value, automatically you are engaged and find it fun (I can see a nihilist, depressive film as The Joker and find it fun). The opposite of fun is boring, boring means the person, at minimum, is not engaged. When someone says that he didn't find something fun, that means, the product failed both the objective AND subjective criteria for that person, that person wasn't engaged at all.

So, when someone say something was great but not fun, it is very odd, you need to question that, why that person wasn't engaged? was the gameplay concept interesting and with potential but couldn't hold up to 90hs? Was the story not enough to motivate and give context to the gameplay? Was the story weak? If a review don't explain that, it is useless. A game could have very interesting concepts but fail to properly explore those concepts. I could see someone seeing those concepts as great but not fun. However, giving 9 or 10 to a such flawed experience seems like "I want my hipster credit." to me.