Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Nano]

Which games are you talking about, exactly? Big library.

The entirety of it? Especially BioWare's, which consistently markets it as a feature of their RPGs only for it to not be there. Their sales have never suffered for it.

 

[Roguey]

People mod Irenicus' dungeon because no one wants to play the tutorial for the upteenth time. Which just speaks volumes to how replayable BG2 was.

Yet they're perfectly fine replaying most of the other parts of it, eh.

 

[Desiderius]

Which games are you talking about, exactly? Big library.

The entirety of it? Especially BioWare's, which consistently markets it as a feature of their RPGs only for it to not be there. Their sales have never suffered for it.

I don't support Bioware anymore, so I really can't say. I've replayed KotOR I and II a time or three over the years.

No games (until P:K ) had as much C&C as I'd like, but I try not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I Guess Skyrim gets a bad rap around here, but it got me to almost finish it a couple times. Had some of the same issues as Deadfire, but not nearly as glaring. Played a good bit of Morrowind back when. Obv Oblivion's scaling is the exact same problem as Deadfire dumbing down. Same sense of disappointed anticipation playing it.

 

[LizardWizard]

Yet they're perfectly fine replaying most of the other parts of it, eh.

Look at completion rates in general for any popular RPG

BG2 was great for restartitis as you could import saves and starting at a higher level allows for testing of different classes and spells etc.

 

[Frozen]

Nothing beats you are shitting yourself go fetch some blueberries for a tea beginning.

Sawyer for Pulitzer.

 

[Desiderius]

People mod Irenicus' dungeon because no one wants to play the tutorial for the upteenth time. Which just speaks volumes to how replayable BG2 was.

Yet they're perfectly fine replaying most of the other parts of it, eh.

It did eventually get sloggy, but not until you'd had enough fun to recommend it. I didn't replay it as much as some other games, you're right.

 

[JarlFrank]

Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 2 was also a direct sequel that continued the first game's story, but it starts like this:
- some weird creepy dude performs torturous experiments on you
- he tells you that he's doing this because you're the son/daughter of a god
- you have to escape from captivity

It's cool. It tells you the most important plot points (you're a Bhaalspawn, that makes you special and powerful, but also motivates some people to work against you). Short and concise, you know what's going on, the details that don't matter aren't mentioned until they matter. You are introduced to the main antagonist within the first minutes of the game. Nobody throws exposition at you, everything is experienced by your character directly. The only thing you're told is "You're a Bhaalspawn". The torture you are subjected to is shown in a cutscene. You explore Irenicus' lab and pick up notes and books along the way. You exit the lab, there's a fight with cowled wizards who take Imoen in for using magic. Your goal is to get her back and get revenge on Irenicus.

Zero exposition. Only directly experienced plot that gives you an incentive to go forwards.

You're praising a beginning that many people criticize for being too long and even necessitated the creation of a mod just so you could skip it.

Every time I replay BG2 I play through Irenicus' dungeon because I genuinely think it's a good dungeon, on par with the game's other dungeons.

 

[vota DC]

Poe3 is a mini game included in disco elysium, you find It next the tent near the church.

 

[fantadomat]

extinct IE style crap

of which dragon age is a spiritual successor......lol you are retarded.

A successful spiritual successor. Bioware didn't just take the formula and made it in better resolution with some QoL stuff, they made the right changes to how the game plays to stay relevant, people/media didn't try/cover it out of nostalgia, they liked it. But go ahead and argue how it was Sawya's rule system ruined the game for another 345678 posts tho.

I challenge you to find a single post where i complain that "Sawya's rule system ruined the game"!!! I am glorious storyfag mate,don't insult me with this degenerate mechanofagging whine !!! The game was shit because the writers were shit!

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

Nothing beats you are shitting yourself go fetch some blueberries for a tea beginning.

Sawyer for Pulitzer.

Hey now, he was just trying to imitate one of the greats.

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water. When she closed her eyes at last, Dany did not know whether she would be strong enough to open them again.

 

[BlackGoat]

2) The actual solution is above. But here is another milder way to deal with the issue "I want to give the player game breaking spells, and then restrain their usage". Just keep track of in-game time, that's all. Let the people who don't sleep much be able to prove it and boast about it, let the people who sleep after every fight look at the in-game date and cry in shame.

This. Bring back final score screens, like the ones in Might and Magic

 

[DalekFlay]

Comments on the Eurogamer article for this:

 

[user]

Comments on the Eurogamer article for this:

I think the poster is on to something, when he says he might be an idiot.

 

[Quillon]

extinct IE style crap

of which dragon age is a spiritual successor......lol you are retarded.

A successful spiritual successor. Bioware didn't just take the formula and made it in better resolution with some QoL stuff, they made the right changes to how the game plays to stay relevant, people/media didn't try/cover it out of nostalgia, they liked it. But go ahead and argue how it was Sawya's rule system ruined the game for another 345678 posts tho.

I challenge you to find a single post where i complain that "Sawya's rule system ruined the game"!!! I am glorious storyfag mate,don't insult me with this degenerate mechanofagging whine !!! The game was shit because the writers were shit!

I wasn't accusing you particularly; this thread alone is a collective whine about pre-buffs ffs

 

[Riddler]

Something more to consider is just how important the story is in this kind of game.

The perhaps primary value of the medium is that you can tell an expansive story with tons of characters for a relatively small penny. Sure, there are mechanics fags (I'm sort a mild case) but most of the people are going to be in it for the story and the characters.

When you then fail the most in these two critically important areas then you have massive fucking problems. The story is what is supposed to be pulling people in and keeping them engaged but here it is the opposite. People get bored by the story and dialogue; for Deadfire a lot of people are even actively repulsed by the companions.

They have gotten better in most departments at Obsidian over time. The art they produce now is often really beautiful, level/area design is competent and their games are no longer buggy messes. Their competitive advantage though, writing, has driven over the edge of a cliff.

They used to have some of the best writers in the industry (if not the best) and what do they have now? Bottom tier valley girls? How the fuck did it end up like this?! Why didn't they treat their most important team better? How did they manage to scare away every single good writer they had and why didn't they spend money on hiring good new ones instead of going for the really cheap option?

It is fucking mind boggling.

 

[Nano]

How did they manage to scare away every single good writer they had

In one case it wasn't even scaring away, it was straight up firing (Ziets). Which is possibly related to Feargus and Ziets not getting along during the development of Dungeon Siege 3.

 

[Tigranes]

I mean, good writers I would think are the hardest thing to identify, hire, and keep. We know what happened with MCA (who, by the way, still isn't doing any substantial writing). But they also lost - I don't know why, maybe Roguey and other pro stalkers know - the likes of Ziets/Fenstermaker in a period of high turnover just when they should have nurtured a new A-team.

 

[Tenebris]

No, but as others have said, lack of C&C is a pretty legit reason of why a casual whatsoever, even new to the genre, player, may have found the game boring. When the story and gameplay grips you by the balls and makes you care about what you do because, consequences, it is of little importance whether you are casual or hardcore.

I still can't fathom what Josh was thinking when he hyped up the C&C so much. A lot of the options didn't seem to do anything. Like what you did with the Souls in the end of the first game. If I recall right the only options that had any even if minor affect was Galawain and Berath. The rest didn't seem to do anything. They sort of fixed Empowering Woedica but she still acts like a crony to Berath which seemed extremely odd to me. All the Gods seemed sub-servant to her.

 

[Riddler]

How did they manage to scare away every single good writer they had

In one case it wasn't even scaring away, it was straight up firing (Ziets). Which is possibly related to Feargus and Ziets not getting along during the development of Dungeon Siege 3.

Fucking Feargus!

 

[Riddler]

I mean, good writers I would think are the hardest thing to identify, hire, and keep. We know what happened with MCA (who, by the way, still isn't doing any substantial writing). But they also lost - I don't know why, maybe Roguey and other pro stalkers know - the likes of Ziets/Fenstermaker in a period of high turnover just when they should have nurtured a new A-team.

And Gonzales and others.

 

[Nano]

But they also lost - I don't know why, maybe Roguey and other pro stalkers know - the likes of Fenstermaker in a period of high turnover just when they should have nurtured a new A-team.

Fenstermaker left for family reasons in 2016, and he still hasn't come back to the game industry so it's up in the air if he comes back to Obsidian when (if?) he does.

As for the others:
Ziets - laid off in 2012 after the Stormlands cancellation.
John Gonzalez - chased out of the company by Fenstermaker in 2011.
Brian Mitsoda - was either fired or left willingly with his head hanging because his Alpha Protocol script wasn't good enough.
Travis Stout - the only mystery in the list, he left Obsidian in late 2011 and went to work instead for Undead Labs on State of Decay. Maybe they offered him a bigger paycheck.

 

[Akratus]

PoE lacked any cool-factor. It's cool to anthropology nerds maybe. If I wanted to sell New Vegas to someone I'd tell them: "You start by getting shot in the head and end up changing the world in whatever way you want, leaving whichever faction, or yourself, on top ruling it after a grand final battle." I can't think of anything remotely as marketable for PoE. If anything defines mainstream culture for games, it's a desperate desire to be mature, artistic, serious, intellectual etc. Which I think led to people lying to themselves on a large scale, pretending PoE wasn't boring. Because it's such a thoughtful game, with deep writing and tactical gameplay, right? That's what people wanted it to be and pretended it is. But in the end it only matters if it was a cool experience and fun to play and PoE just isn't. It's well made but totally dull.

 

[user]

But they also lost - I don't know why, maybe Roguey and other pro stalkers know - the likes of Fenstermaker in a period of high turnover just when they should have nurtured a new A-team.

Fenstermaker left for family reasons in 2016, and he still hasn't come back to the game industry so it's up in the air if he comes back to Obsidian when (if?) he does.

Hmmm I kind of remember another version of the story...

 

[Nano]

Hmmm I kind of remember another version of the story...

Which one?

 

[Israfael]

It's actually very surprising why he's even complaining. Just to start (and I'm talking about release-time PoE1, since I had zero compunction to buy Dumpsterfire or re-start the game apparently after some problems were 'fixed') :
- He took our money to make the game that HE likes, not what they promised and what people wanted (there wasn't a serious D&D game in a decade at the point when PoE released)
- He used that money to fuel his D&D hate-driven system that basically made the role-playing component pointless and useless (first impression that I got when I started PoE1 was how little reactivity and C&C there was and how counter-intuitive everything was (on purpose, of course))
- Game obviously suffered from the checkbox design and WL2 inspired management method that split the plot between numerous cheap and inexperienced writers (with a lot of self-importance and "I'm better than GRRM / JRRT" attitude that is befit a Literature/English major)
- Last two issues made the game absolutely boring and uniteresting to play - I stopped after I cleaned out the mad paladin castle (don't remember the name).

People like to shit on NWN2 for inane plot and criticise the combat system in DoS2 (and I partially agree with that in regards with the broken initiative that was not fixed when I was playing it), but at least there was something good in both (3.5e in NWN2, also MoTB and SoZ later, DoS2 sense of adventure and memorable companions + long-reaching reactivity, combat was challenging but also fun if you are into chess or something like that). PoE1 was neither and I got quickly bored and disappointed in it (and I had to scrounge my last $30 or $40 to kickstart it back when it began, so it'd stung especially hard), so I didn't even follow PoE2's development and never considered buying it before hearing the other 'dexers' opinions. On the other hand, I never even heard of PF:KM before it was released, but was pleasantly surprised by it and sank 260+ hrs in one playthrough.