Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Zumbabul]

- QoL: no button to switch weapons, no access to action bars in the capital, I had one more but I am forgetting (EDIT: Even when manual handling of action bars is selected, spells that used to be memorized but not any more are automatically taken off the action bar. What part of "manual" didn't the designer understand?).

No button to switch weapons was really annoying. My solution to this problem was a mouse with extra buttons and macros. I wrote two macros. The first one switches weapons of the party to melee, and the second one to ranged.

I was also annoyed that there are no keybind for stealth. So, I was forced to write a macro for stealth.

 

[ArchAngel]

I am talking about original BG2 too. I don't use mods for it, but I restrain myself as to what tactics I can use.

An I should ignore it because there is beauty in filling your spellbook with breaches, secret words and warding whips?

Yes! You may also discover that it brings about gameplay that fits perfectly with RTwP- it probably wouldn't be so great with TB for example. It is like RTwP was made for it. But whatever floats your boat.

The main problem is that most people cheese those fights, so that kind of prestigious combat design never had the influence it should, and did not propagate. Still, the doctors were geniuses, and it shows.

Then restrain yourself from buffing too much in Pathfinder and use stupid spells one by one to remove enemy defenses during battle

In other words, don't compare these two games if it comes down to stupid limitations of your own choosing.

 

[Trashos]

Then restrain yourself from buffing too much in Pathfinder and use stupid spells one by one to remove enemy defenses during battle

In other words, don't compare these two games if it comes down to stupid limitations of your own choosing.

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down. Pathfinder does not support such a thing, as far as I can see.

Cheesing can be done in Kingmaker too (poison, for example). I am staying away from it in a very comparable way.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down.

Define "defenses", then.
Prone condition is -4 to AC against melee attacks. Use Grease.
Grappled condition is -4 DEX, -2 to all attack rolls and some other debuffs, including difficulty to cast. Use Web.
Nauseated. "The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn." Use Cacophonous Call.
Helpless enemies are vulnerable to coup de grace which is OHKO against fortitude save and delivers massive damage if the save succeeds. Use Hold, Sleep or any other disabling spell.
Dead enemies do nothing. Use Phantasmal Killer from a good DC caster.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down.

Can't defend if dead

 

[Trashos]

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down.

Define "defenses", then.

Copied from my post on the previous page:

(minor) Spell Shield, Globe of Invulnerability, (improved) Mantle, (minor) Spell Deflection, (minor) Spell Turning, Mirror Image, Mislead, Project Image, Protection from Normal/Magic Weapons, Protection from Elements, Spell Trap, Stoneskin.

But I am basically referring to the ones that can be viewed as "in need of hard counters".

Look, BG2's mage duels with their puzzle-like nature (I would personally call it "open lock" nature) are a celebrated thing, even if they never caught on and propagated. It is not like I am talking about some esoteric BS. Why do I have to explain this in a RTwP thread?

 

[Thonius]

New rumor - they will announce game before 22th December.

 

[ArchAngel]

Then restrain yourself from buffing too much in Pathfinder and use stupid spells one by one to remove enemy defenses during battle

In other words, don't compare these two games if it comes down to stupid limitations of your own choosing.

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down. Pathfinder does not support such a thing, as far as I can see.

Cheesing can be done in Kingmaker too (poison, for example). I am staying away from it in a very comparable way.

Defenses are their AC, their move speed and their massive damage that kill your guys fast. None of this was a problem in BG2. Only Mages, Beholders (that used spells), Illithids presented any kind of problem (I would also add Vampires but that amulet you get makes them pathetic).
In PKM enemy damage and base defenses do present problems. There are plenty of enemies that you do not fight directly with standard characters. You employ ways to destroy their movespeed, AC or damage output capabilities, often you destroy more than one of those to beat them.

This is not that much different than BG2, except in name. Difference is that in PKM you could also have similar kind of mage battles but they are unused due to lack of Globe spells and Counterspelling.

 

[Sykar]

Then restrain yourself from buffing too much in Pathfinder and use stupid spells one by one to remove enemy defenses during battle

In other words, don't compare these two games if it comes down to stupid limitations of your own choosing.

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down. Pathfinder does not support such a thing, as far as I can see.

Cheesing can be done in Kingmaker too (poison, for example). I am staying away from it in a very comparable way.

Deadly Earth...

 

[Thonius]

Deadly Earth is so cheesy and OP I just cant even use it without feeling bad.

 

[ArchAngel]

Deadly Earth is so cheesy and OP I just cant even use it without feeling bad.

It is a great tool to go through last two chapters fast without needing to use Sirocco that prevents your team's passage until its duration runs out. You just recast deadly earth behind your party once enemy is dead to progress further.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Lol, Cheesemaker... I got to the Armag fight in the tomb, pre-buffed my partay, Haste, Displacement on everyone. Strangely seemed like party moved at regular speed, but what the heck, went in anyway, Armag one shot every single single party member, crit for 150 damage on my main.

After several repeats of the scenario above, reloaded earlier save, and re-cast buffs. This time, Haste and Displacement actually worked, and I offed his barbarian arse.

 

[Desiderius]

I don't see tools to take enemy defenses down. Pathfinder does not support such a thing, as far as I can see.

 

[Pink Eye]

Ring of the unmaker too. Grants greater dispel for each successful unarmed strike.

 

[Trashos]

C'mon, guys, you understand that having an all-weather Dispel and Greater Dispel is no match to BG2's depth in this department. You know that I am not a hater, I like Kingmaker a lot, so hopefully we are discussing in good faith. (Don't expect me to not criticize games that I like, btw, I am a Codexer at heart. Ferocious but, hopefully, reasonable and helpful criticism is coming your beloved game's way no matter what.)

In PKM enemy damage and base defenses do present problems. There are plenty of enemies that you do not fight directly with standard characters. You employ ways to destroy their movespeed, AC or damage output capabilities, often you destroy more than one of those to beat them.

Right, I am not saying that Kingmaker does not have its own interesting spin on things or that I don't like the combat system. What I am saying is that I am in love with the mage duels in BG2, and the system in Kingmaker does not support such a thing.

This is not that much different than BG2, except in name. Difference is that in PKM you could also have similar kind of mage battles but they are unused due to lack of Globe spells and Counterspelling.

Here is the deal. For me, the highest point of BG2's combat was the mage duels: what you call counterspelling or what I call debuffing wars. I like "counterspelling", we can keep that term. This is exactly what I am missing in Kingmaker, in comparison to BG2. A deep counterspelling system (and of course combat encounters that are designed around it).

 

[Trashos]

Btw, I understand perfectly that some of my criticism has to do with the Pathfinder system, and not with the Kingmaker's developers work.

For example, Pathfinder does not seem to support a deep counterspelling system like in BG2, so what could the Kingmaker developers have done? Probably nothing, even if they wanted to. Also, the best way to make buffing spells "not always great" imo is to assign disadvantages to them. In such a system, with each buff you earn something and you lose something else, it is a trade off, and therefore you are not going to use such buffs unless you know what you are doing. Sadly, Pathfinder does not seem include such concepts* to a great extend, so again the developers couldn't have done anything about it.

* Some Alchemist abilities are actually trade offs. Eg, a single ability increases your DEX, but decreases a mental stat. However, this great concept is not utilized for the rest of the buffs. And yes, even for Alchemists it needs some tuning to make it an interesting trade off, because right now it is usually a no brainer anyway.

 

[Pink Eye]

C'mon, guys, you understand that having an all-weather Dispel and Greater Dispel is no match to BG2's depth in this department. You know that I am not a hater, I like Kingmaker a lot, so hopefully we are discussing in good faith. (Don't expect me to not criticize games that I like, btw, I am a Codexer at heart. Ferocious but, hopefully, reasonable and helpful criticism is coming your beloved game's way no matter what.)

In PKM enemy damage and base defenses do present problems. There are plenty of enemies that you do not fight directly with standard characters. You employ ways to destroy their movespeed, AC or damage output capabilities, often you destroy more than one of those to beat them.

Right, I am not saying that Kingmaker does not have its own interesting spin on things or that I don't like the combat system. What I am saying is that I am in love with the mage duels in BG2, and the system in Kingmaker does not support such a thing.

This is not that much different than BG2, except in name. Difference is that in PKM you could also have similar kind of mage battles but they are unused due to lack of Globe spells and Counterspelling.

Here is the deal. For me, the highest point of BG2's combat was the mage duels: what you call counterspelling or what I call debuffing wars. I like "counterspelling", we can keep that term. This is exactly what I am missing in Kingmaker, in comparison to BG2. A deep counterspelling system (and of course combat encounters that are designed around it).

I'm hesitant to speak on Baldur's Gate, as it has been a very long time since I last played. However, I do enjoy reading your posts by the way. I think there is merit on what you're saying. It's hard to discern tone when communicating via the internet, and that issue is further compounded by the nature of disagreements.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah Pathfinder is definitely simpler than AD&D in the mage duel department. It has some mage duel elements though. The problem is mages don't pre-buff in this game, or use spell sequencers.

 

[Haplo]

I'm actually not a big fan of BG. I mean those are solid games, just nowhere near the podium of best crpgs.

But I'll readily admit that these 2 things have never been done better: spell Combat and party vs party encounters. Oh and also Kangaxx was one of the most memorable encounters for me, due to nearly... Inevitability of his certain abilities, as well as defenses which nearly couldn't be defeated at certain level - without very specific weapons and/or spells.

 

[Morkar Left]

Started to play the game now for serious. It seems all the patching actually worked. I just claimed by barony and so far it's smooth sailing.

I use the turnbased mod (plus some others) and I have to say it fits into the game as if it was always there from the beginning. It's not even tedious right now because you are not facing that many enemies actually. I would say it doesn't make the game easier overall. Realtime and turnbased have its own advantages and disadvantages. And I'm really happy that there is actually a mod to deactivate the overpowered sneak attack changes.

The game goes a bit overborad at the beginning with difficulty. You would expect they give - not restricted regarding noobs - some wiggle room to learn the game mechanics and how your chars work. Instead they introduce directly new game concepts like enemies with DR, swarms (these are actually easy in the original pnp and here really, really annoying) and trip attacks. Even the bandits at Oleg aren't for newby easy I would say.

The game surprised me so far the most with all the various choices. And almost all of these choices in dialogues are depending on some skill or alignment. But even outside of the dialogue is a good portion of choices. Really good stuff there.
If the game keeps its pace then it's definitely the closest spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate.

The Stag Lord camp was cool on one hand but a bit disappointing that never the whole camp got on alarm and attacked me coordinated. A bit weird especially on the door entry.

Here's how I did it:

Spoiler

Kressel should wait till the actual fun starts obviously. I scouted the area, killed the wolves (?) in the east and discovered the zombies in the west. Lots of zombies... Got some killed by luring them to Kressel. Just wanted to know how the game works. The dispatched them easily. Still hadn't found an entry. Made my main char invisible and scouted the zombie area alone.

Found the alternate entry there. Used it and met that npc fighter guy who didn't attack me but talked (despite me being invisible...). Convinced him to flip sides (diplomacy beast) and continued infiltrating the camp. Got rid of the owlbear by closing him inside the cage. Sneaked out again through the zombies.

Found no other entry and decided to try the front door with my party to see what happens. Expected a swift death actually or at least an attack on me and a reload. Surprisingly the doors opened (diplomacy beast). I got attacked anyway and actually thought ok now it's fighting the whole camp who is getting alarmed. Nope, only three guys at the door. The rest didn't come over. Now I got the Walking Dead idea. I parked my party outside by Kressel. Then I lured most of the zombies through the door and ran upwards to the other bandits with the zombies following me. I swiftly drank an invisible potion and let the zombies do their thing.

Worked nicely but if you don't trigger the rest of the camp the zombies it seems won't either. After I sneaked out I saw the surviving zombies return to their place but the camp wasn't cmpletely wiped out. But that's more a problem how the camp is designed. I killed the Stag Lord and still had some enemies a few meters right after the battle who weren't triggered and only attacked me after. The AI should just be more able to triggers with a greater distance away. Otherwise I cool approach to infiltrate the camp.

Does the kingdom management some purpose besides being plotgiver and being its own game in a game thing? I mean something like taxing Gold for yourself, being able to have some goons with you, field battles, better equipment, spells etc?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Did someone say "mage duel"?

Spoiler

 

[Pink Eye]

I'm actually not a big fan of BG. I mean those are solid games, just nowhere near the podium of best crpgs.

But I'll readily admit that these 2 things have never been done better: spell Combat and party vs party encounters. Oh and also Kangaxx was one of the most memorable encounters for me, due to nearly... Inevitability of his certain abilities, as well as defenses which nearly couldn't be defeated at certain level - without very specific weapons and/or spells.

What kind of CRPGs does the Great Haplo play?

 

[Desiderius]

Here is the deal. For me, the highest point of BG2's combat was the mage duels: what you call counterspelling or what I call debuffing wars. I like "counterspelling", we can keep that term. This is exactly what I am missing in Kingmaker, in comparison to BG2. A deep counterspelling system (and of course combat encounters that are designed around it).

Yeah, well, Linzi is my mage duelist in P:K. She counterspells with her sonic spells that trigger a Fortitude save + a concentration check on the damage and she Dispels buffs that sneak through. Her Dirge of Doom debuffs both saves and and attack bonuses while also turning on Shatter Defenses.

All that interplay is there, but as with much else it doesn't hold your hand in finding it - you've got to figure it out for yourself.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Much of the things attributed to combat in BG are due to SCS. Combat is a walk in the park without it installed.

 

[Pink Eye]

Much of the things attributed to combat in BG are due to SCS. Combat is a walk in the park without it installed.

Pathfinder needs a Sword Coast Stratagems type mod, to be honest.