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Fishy

Savant
Joined
Jan 24, 2019
Messages
398
Location
Ireland
Deus Ex is one of my favorite games but it sure as shit is not a masterpiece if going by the definition that a masterpiece is an as-close-as-possible-to-perfect work.
Without mentioning that the levels on New York are one of the best designed levels I played on a hybrid FPS/RPG , Hong Kong isn't bad but the story takes a nose dive after you leave UNATCO (it is a big failure on roleplaying you being railroaded into not being able to remain at UNATCO, what I don't understand to this day), the whole Paris section is absolutely dreadful, it doesn't even seem to belong on the same game. Really is one of the best RPGs made but masterpiece? Nope.

I would consider that if the quality on level design was sustained through the whole game and you could remain at UNATCO.

Imho time hasn't been kind to Deus Ex either, and if one is trying to define 'masterpiece' then an engine that can age gracefully could arguably be part of it. I have very very fond memories of the Hong Kong section, mostly the gameplay (didn't like Miss Chow, threw her out the window, and was amazed at how the game just dealt with it, including the people in the street below being in a state of panic when I came out of the building afterwards), but also the whole look and feel of the place. Then... watched the wife play through the game a couple years ago and could hardly believe that ugly empty bad FPS level was what all these memories came from.

There's a lot to be said for good raster art or more artistic 3d rendering techniques (low poly, cel shading...) in order to withstand the ravages of time. For another cyberpunk comparison, the HBS Shadowrun games will imho maintain a lot of their appeal over time when Deus Ex will simply become harder and harder for new gamers to play.
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
Location
Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without.

Meh, I've said that on my blog many times in defense of Troika's trio. However, you got me wrong. Masterpieces can have minor flaws. I even repeated myself and I'm doing it again for you: we're talking about games that approach flawless victories.

Also, you dare call Jagged Alliance 2 a pebble? Jagged Alliance 2 is an ambitious masterpiece that makes Troika's games look rank-amateurish.

Where do you draw the line between a minor flaw and major flaw? Aside from games like Bloodlines or KOTOR2 that were broken or obviously amputees on release, it’s a question of what variety of bullshit you’re willing to ignore.

Re: flawless pebbles, you know I was referring to Diablo and as far as Diablo goes the analogy is apt (you know it’s true or you wouldn’t have retreated to safer ground with JA2). Who knew Confucius had so much sage wisdom to offer about game design?

Jagged Alliance 2 is the best turn-based tactics game ever made. I’d say its greatest flaw is a byproduct of its greatest strength: the hardcore simulationist elements allow you to do amazing things—I’ll never forget the first time I killed some mook with a ricochet—but the system can also get tedious at times.

As for calling it a flawless victory, when? You usually review the “definitive” editions when you do your retrospectives, the way these games were meant to be played when they came out. Yet for JA2 you played 1.12, which is the fully patched version of the Gold edition from 2002 that apparently incorporates some changes from Unfinished Business. And if we’re counting stuff like 1.13, why not do the same for something like Bloodlines? Three years post release you already had Wesp and Tessera competing over their fan patches.

But if you now consider JA2 your top RPG rather than Fallout, I can only conclude that you’re kinda sick of RPGs. The things that make JA2 great are the strategic and tactical elements, not the RPG elements. If they stripped out the character creation and only let you recruit from their pool of mercs, the game would only be marginally worse.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,144
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
The RPG is not even complete.
Also, thoughts on King of Dragon Pass? It's not a standard RPG, but worth considering, and very polished.
I love KoDP, but definitely wouldn't call it a masterpiece (if being a masterpiece requires that the game be near-flawless, as the OP seems to think). For one thing, as far as I can tell, there is really only one viable way to play the game and win: be crazy generous all the time, don't pillage too often, and don't ever piss off the non-human enemies (e.g. trolls). There are other issues, like many of the seemingly-innocuous early-game decisions making the game completely impossible later on (e.g. your initial choice of an ancestral enemy), and it being kinda random whether you succeed at hero quests. Still, despite this stuff, it's a great game.

WRONG!

There is a way to play rich guy, like worship the god of artisan, concentrate on the artisan portion of population, open up trade route etc... In my run it's viable to win second, not Kingship, because the chief was too old. It's a strange and very different way from other plays.

There is also a way expand a clan as big as possible. And the way it ism to raid EVERYONE touching our border. I did it. It's hard because we got retalitation raids every time. It's good because you can use Earthblood ritual thus get rich crop every year. This is also quite different.

Of course, there's also the normal win way everybody can play.
Interesting! I tried several attempts playing a raid-heavy clan and didn't get very far, but it looks like I need to try again. Do you think I am also wrong about having to choose the right ancestral enemy and not pissing off non-humans? Seems like pissing off trolls too much leads to unavoidable game over (unless you undo it with a hero quest or something like that).

Playing raid-heavy is like playing with fire. You gotta be prepared about that:
+Earthblood because you gotta have some returns from all those raids and all those deaths.
+YOu gotta have enough weaponthane for both outer patrol and station inside. This mean generally this strategy is a early middle game one, not beginning.
+Having at least two leaders good in combat is a help, because the only one combat leader might get hurt in the 1st defend and might fall in the 2nd.

As for ancestral enemies, choosing them but you dont have to aggressively messing with them. "You dont have to suicide" is a good mindset.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
Here is what the 'Dex rates above Jagged Alliance 2:

1. Planescape: Torment (the second most overrated RPG of its era)
2. Fallout (this is where it belongs, just beneath JA2)
3. BG2 (the most overrated RPG of its era; generic as it gets)
4. Arcanum (ranked too highly; should be about 7th)
5. Vampire Bloodlines (an edgy, bug-ridden popamole for hipsters)
6. Fallout 2 (a mod of Fallout)
7. Oblivion With Guns: New Vegas (a mod of Oblivion With Guns)
8. Deus Ex (it's top 3 all-time)
9. Gothic 2 (cuts a poor figure in any top 10)
10. Morrowind (a shitstain on the genre; a hiking sim)
11. Age of Decadence (deserves to be in any 'Dex top 10)
12. Dark Souls (overrated popamole)
13. Poncefinder: Cuckmaker (grossly overrated current gen Baldur's Gate clone)
14. Jagged Alliance 2
On the other hand:

Diablo.

Diablo is a masterpiece.
16902.jpg


Codex list is more prestigious than this thread. +M
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
I thought JA2 is TBS.

It doesn't matter what you think, infidel. The 'Dex rates JA2 14th all-time. Monocled 'Dexers at least rate it top 5; the most monocled no. 1. To give you a picture, the 'Dex rates a shallow popamole like Gothic 2 above JA2, when JA2 has more reactivity in its questing, exploration, critical path and dialogue than Gothic, Gothic 2 and Gothic 3 put together.

Not to mention JA2 is isometric, turn-based and party-based (from solo to three squads of six).

JA2 is GOAT.
Gothic 1/2 are shallow popamole. What?
Reactivity, questing, exploration and progression(critical path?) are literally what Gothic is famous for being head and shoulders above the rest. So i dont know what a fuck are you talking about.
You sound like some kid who just recently discovered JA2 and thinks how its teh best gaem evar! Yes its good, but how can it even be compared with a game thats:
1. in medieval times; 2. single character; 3. real time. ???
 

overly excitable young man

Guest
Exploration and progression are really great.
But since when does Gothic have a high reactivity (i guess you mean C&C)?
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Exploration and progression are really great.
But since when does Gothic have a high reactivity (i guess you mean C&C)?
Reactivity in the sense of how the world (NPCs) reacts to your actions. And there is some serious C&C in your build and faction choices which exclude eachother.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
(it is a big failure on roleplaying you being railroaded into not being able to remain at UNATCO, what I don't understand to this day

Because they'd have to script two different versions of the game going forward and that would be a ton of work. They made the best possible game they could in the 34 months and the 20 full-time people+6 contractors they had to make it.

randomly likes...Blobbers.

Lil hates blobbers. I suspect that we have similar minds and she finds it too frustrating to orient herself in them as I do.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Where do you draw the line between a minor flaw and major flaw? Aside from games like Bloodlines or KOTOR2 that were broken or obviously amputees on release, it’s a question of what variety of bullshit you’re willing to ignore.

Examples of minor flaws:

poor voice acting
slight jank
a few bugs and glitches here and there
out-of-place pop-culture references
illusion of C&C in some places
occasional poor writing

Examples of major flaws:

not abiding by the lore
game-breaking bugs and glitches
console UIs
unskippable cutscenes
clunky controls
incompletion
OP itemization
minigames
rulesbloat
overt encounter and item scaling
poor pathfinding routines
torrential dialogue
poor combat encounter design

Re: flawless pebbles, you know I was referring to Diablo and as far as Diablo goes the analogy is apt (you know it’s true or you wouldn’t have retreated to safer ground with JA2).

Diablo would be harder to code than something like Dark Sun: Shattered Lands.

Jagged Alliance 2 is the best turn-based tactics game ever made. I’d say its greatest flaw is a byproduct of its greatest strength: the hardcore simulationist elements allow you to do amazing things—I’ll never forget the first time I killed some mook with a ricochet—but the system can also get tedious at times.

Not any more tedious than any other RPG undeservedly rated above it.

As for calling it a flawless victory, when? You usually review the “definitive” editions when you do your retrospectives, the way these games were meant to be played when they came out. Yet for JA2 you played 1.12, which is the fully patched version of the Gold edition from 2002 that apparently incorporates some changes from Unfinished Business. And if we’re counting stuff like 1.13, why not do the same for something like Bloodlines? Three years post release you already had Wesp and Tessera competing over their fan patches.

What are you talking about? 1.12 is the authoritative Sir-Tech version of JA2. 1.13 is a mod but is 100 times the achievement of Wesp/Tessera/insert any other modder here other than Brother Laz.

01.jpg


That comment has since been removed from the retrospective because mods are irrelevant to retrospectives.

But if you now consider JA2 your top RPG rather than Fallout, I can only conclude that you’re kinda sick of RPGs. The things that make JA2 great are the strategic and tactical elements, not the RPG elements. If they stripped out the character creation and only let you recruit from their pool of mercs, the game would only be marginally worse.

That's because it has brilliant system employment. Including the combat system. Fully-realtime aside, JA2, ToEE and Silent Storm are the ONLY games of the genre with brilliant combat systems.

JA2 has more reactivity than you seem to give it credit for. Reactivity pertaining to party composition, to exploration, and to questing, for example. Remember how you could be captured in Fallout and time-lapsed faraway to the enemy stronghold as a prisoner, whereupon you can escape? Jagged Alliance 2 has that as well. Remember how in Fallout you could beeline to the boss? Jagged Alliance 2 has that as well.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
Scorpia and Lil would disagree on quite a bit. The former was a Role Player who put Ultima IV on a pedestal and disliked RPGs with too much combat.

Edit:
Lisa: What have some of your favorite games over the years been?
Scorpia: Of course, there's Ultima IV, my all-time, number one, favorite RPG. Also Fallout (the original), the Zorks & Enchanter series from Infocom, Diablo, Daggerfall, the Wizardries, and Might & Magic (some, not all).

Okay, they'd have some common-ground. :lol:
 

Master

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 19, 2016
Messages
1,160
Diablo is good sure and doesn't have any major flaws, but it doesn't shoot very high either. Game is as barebones as fuck.
Tristram consists of four huts and a church. With maybe five-six npcs who all stand in the same spot all day and night. Actually just night, because this game had no budget for even daytime.
Bare-fucking-bones as you can get(away with it).
Graphics are basically one step above cave paintings, which was 20000 years ago, but im supposed to be amazed by it now.
The story is literally: beat the fucking Devil, which is like something a little kid though up in school.
:rpgcodex:
Etc.
Music is great at least, and basically half the game, as no one would remember it otherwise.
 

Valky

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
2,418
Location
Trapped in a bioform
I have a solid fistful of games I could posit as masterpieces but they aren't RPGs.
ToEE could be a masterpiece if it had been released with all of its content and minus the massive list of bugs it had.
Grimoire is a masterpiece.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
You sound like some kid who just recently discovered JA2 and thinks how its teh best gaem evar!

Do you know who I am, infidel? I've posted some of the top write-ups for JA2. If you were literate and able to read them, there would be no doubt in your mind that I'm not new to the game.

Yes its good, but how can it even be compared with a game thats:
1. in medieval times; 2. single character; 3. real time. ???

A medieval popamole, infidel? Who would've thunk it?

Party of 18 >>> one dork that runs like a fag
Turn-based >>> popamole
War-torn country with guns >>> dinky fantasy with swords and spells

Silly infidel.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Yeah yeah yeah you have a blog or something. Don't get a swelled head.

I don't have a swelled head. The guy was saying I'm a newbie to JA2. What better way to prove I'm not a newbie than by citing my own authoritative, unequaled sources. Be glad I didn't post links, scrub.
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,828
It's clear to me that many people posting ITT haven't played Jagged Alliance 2.

So, maybe it's time to leave Castle Codex for a while, return to my Stronghold (lilura1.blogspot.com), and start planning my crusade against the infidels...

The less people like you talk about it, even fewer new people will try it out like in your JA2 thread!
 

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