Jagged Alliance Jagged Alliance 2, Temple of Elemental Evil & Silent Storm Retrospectives

[Pegultagol]

Alright I'm trying this game (version 1.13) and it is a very interesting experience... pretty reactive and ever evolving. However, some mercs die off and no one wants to be hired anymore from AIM. I've never seen a game where it refuses to engage (somewhat struggling) player by cutting off what is tantamount to a prized resource, thus making the game if not harder then definitely less rewarding (because interaction between mercs is more or less the top attraction). A more practical, sensible means would dictate cost increase in insurance would come first, followed by an e-mail perhaps warning about the impending loss of service. But I'm already spoiled by hand holding variable difficulty pampering sessions and scaled challenges so there.

Another thing is that there is no way to send the trained militia on a patrol like the Queen's goons can. I see them loitering all over towns and sectors up to no good and I can't believe that our own militia can't protect important crossroads and possible bottlenecks outside towns. Maybe it might make the game too easy, who knows.

Other than that, it is what it is advertised as, a game that stands the test of time probably for the rest of time.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

having militia roaming around would literally finish the game in your place, because militia can be raised in huge numbers and trained up to be death machines. they're a defence force, it's fine like this.

 

[sser]

I talked to Ian Currie for about an hour over the phone a year or two ago. He has some information regarding the Silent Storm engine and of course general Jagged Alliance tidbits, including some humorous info about the voice acting. If you're doing a retrospective you should reach out to him. I'd publish it myself but we just had a general chat and didn't agree to publishing anything so I gotta respect that. Nice dude, though, easy to talk with.

 

[Lilura]

If you're doing a retrospective you should reach out to him.

As I've said before, what devs say about their games doesn't interest me. I did once correspond with the lead writer of Baldur's Gate, but now I only care about the games themselves. As I'm not really a people person, I leave history of dev-cycles, tidbits and interviews to other, more sociable commentators.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Alright I'm trying this game (version 1.13) and it is a very interesting experience... pretty reactive and ever evolving. However, some mercs die off and no one wants to be hired anymore from AIM. I've never seen a game where it refuses to engage (somewhat struggling) player by cutting off what is tantamount to a prized resource, thus making the game if not harder then definitely less rewarding (because interaction between mercs is more or less the top attraction). A more practical, sensible means would dictate cost increase in insurance would come first, followed by an e-mail perhaps warning about the impending loss of service. But I'm already spoiled by hand holding variable difficulty pampering sessions and scaled challenges so there.

Another thing is that there is no way to send the trained militia on a patrol like the Queen's goons can. I see them loitering all over towns and sectors up to no good and I can't believe that our own militia can't protect important crossroads and possible bottlenecks outside towns. Maybe it might make the game too easy, who knows.

Other than that, it is what it is advertised as, a game that stands the test of time probably for the rest of time.

Some mercs are more sensitive to losses than others, it depends on their personality. So unless you get a dozen mercs killed, you should always be able to hire more. Also, the more days pass since merc deaths, the easier it'll be to hire new mercs again.

1.13 does add mobile militia while preventing training militia past regular level so that they can't easily wipe out Queen's troops.

 

[Lilura]

Alright I'm trying this game (version 1.13) and it is a very interesting experience... pretty reactive and ever evolving ... a game that stands the test of time probably for the rest of time.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

a game that stands the test of time probably for the rest of time.

Good one.

 

[The Red Knight]

Alright I'm trying this game (version 1.13) and it is a very interesting experience... pretty reactive and ever evolving. However, some mercs die off and no one wants to be hired anymore from AIM. I've never seen a game where it refuses to engage (somewhat struggling) player by cutting off what is tantamount to a prized resource, thus making the game if not harder then definitely less rewarding (because interaction between mercs is more or less the top attraction). A more practical, sensible means would dictate cost increase in insurance would come first, followed by an e-mail perhaps warning about the impending loss of service. But I'm already spoiled by hand holding variable difficulty pampering sessions and scaled challenges so there.

Some mercs are more sensitive to losses than others, it depends on their personality. So unless you get a dozen mercs killed, you should always be able to hire more. Also, the more days pass since merc deaths, the easier it'll be to hire new mercs again.

If you have someone's friend in your team then they should join you no matter your death counter (so something like: "I like this person very much so I'll join you to increase their survival chances, you bastard"). IIRC once you unlock MERC's mercs they should always join too (because they can't afford to be picky).
If you can't keep your reputation high you may want to wait out at the beginning the chain of inactivity emails you may get from Enrico so you don't suffer a rep drop at some important moment later.

Some more details:
http://ja2v113.pbworks.com/w/page/4218328/"How does it work" Part 9: Relationships
(I think these writeups are for the vanilla behavior despite being on a 1.13 site)

Also are you actually playing with the 1.13 mod for your first run or did you mean 1.12?

 

[Lilura]

Just found the Auto Rocket Rifle in my playthrough:

Here is my best random depot find:

In another game, my ambidextrous IMP dual-wields these:

I'm going to do an Expert-Ironman-Dead-is-Dead run next.

 

[Pegultagol]

Also are you actually playing with the 1.13 mod for your first run or did you mean 1.12?

Just diving into 1.13, but am familiar with 1.12. You're right, the relationship stuff does seem to make mercs a bit more lenient, another thing I missed, wow. And the MERC dudes seem to scale pretty high now as well, albeit expensive, so hiring doesn't seem much of an issue now.

And I searched a bit and found out mobile militia was taken out some time ago in 1.13, but I will check out the ini settings and see if there's some tweaks to be made.

 

[overly excitable young man]

Haven't played JA 2 yet. Is the go to way 1.13 or is there a better way?

 

[Jimmious]

Haven't played JA 2 yet. Is the go to way 1.13 or is there a better way?

I would advice to play vanilla first once and then 1.13 in subsequent playthroughs (there will be, trust me). The reason is that 1.13 adds a shit ton of systems and weapons and stuff so you might be overwhelmed since JA2 is already a "system heavy" game.

 

[overly excitable young man]

I don't like to replay games. Is 1.13 so different from vanilla that it's worth it?

 

[Strange Fellow]

I don't like to replay games. Is 1.13 so different from vanilla that it's worth it?

It's actually so different from vanilla that it's NOT worth it. It's so stuffed with broken and idiotic ideas that unless you're familiar with vanilla already it'll probably be worse. Jagged Alliance 2 in any iteration is a treasure, but I'd go for the stock version (that is, Stracciatella, which is pretty much just stable vanilla with higher resolutions).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I usually find Lilura's disdain of mods of any kind to be kind of overboard, but come on... it became virtually impossible, even for first timers, to speak about JA2, a game that is totally playable and great as is, without the discussion immediately drifting over to that fucking 1.13. It pisses me off so much that I actually tend to side with her.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Haven't played JA 2 yet. Is the go to way 1.13 or is there a better way?

i never touched vanilla in my life, i only know 1.13. i'm perfectly happy this way.

 

[d1nolore]

How would people rate JA1&Deadly Games vs JA2?

 

[GarfunkeL]

They are great games but frustratingly limited if you started with JA2.

JA1 is basically one campaign but you have a limited amount of mercenaries, VERY limited amount of weapons and items, and fewer options when it comes to combat - no rooftop sniping, no crawling, no entering through windows for example. But you can crouch behind stuff, you can knife enemies, you can blow walls to make your own entrances to buildings, there are secrets to be discovered, deadly traps to avoid, and you're not too badly railroaded from sector to sector. The management side isn't as complex either. It's a simpler game but all the systems are robust. I played it loads and loads and loads back then.

JA:DG is basically a scenario editor with an example "campaign" slapped on top. It has a shit ton of custom content and the example campaign is pretty good. More mercs, more weapons, but no strategic map and most campaigns are just 5-8 missions long. Management side is extremely simplistic. But if you like the combat of JA1, then JA:DG is a good investment because you'll get loads more combat.

But I haven't played either one even once after JA2 came out because it is just simply better in literally every aspect. It's not a compromise like so many sequels, but truly an improvement across the board.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

But I haven't played either one even once after JA2 came out because it is just simply better in literally every aspect. It's not a compromise like so many sequels, but truly an improvement across the board.

Agreed when it comes to JA vs JA2, except for the final mission. Assaulting the bad dude's house protected by loads of guys was way more satisfying and intense a fight than getting to the bitch queen in her palace. But that's just level design, JA2 is clearly superior as a game.
As for deadly games, the different types of missions (spying and taking pictures, stealth stealing or blowing some shit up) were a great addition, too bad thet let that go in JA2.

And that Irish terrorist arms dealer...

 

[Roguey]

How would people rate JA1&Deadly Games vs JA2?

I talked about Deadly Games here https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...e-grognards-thread.94135/page-37#post-3616177

It had potential, but also quite a lot of annoying features (bulletproof trees, time limits).

 

[Lilura]

Agreed when it comes to JA vs JA2, except for the final mission. Assaulting the bad dude's house protected by loads of guys was way more satisfying and intense a fight than getting to the bitch queen in her palace.

Doesn't JA bad guy only have one sector? Meduna is several sectors not including shelter and infiltration of shelter via tunnels the entrance to which is in the garden maze (thus, multiple pathways), and remote controlled. Going via tunnels also results in acquisition of the above-screencapped auto rocket rifle.

Remember how the Queen runs into her fireplace to get down to her shelter? And she has that personal bodyguard with her, that also has dialogue and can be bribed?

But then, I thought the final assault on Meduna in JA2 was climactic. Going up against tanks and elites armed with LAWs, mortars and MAC-10s or FN-FALs. Fucking epic with a party of 18. It brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Doesn't JA bad guy only have one sector?

Yes he does, but I had to retry multiple times to finally win, whereas I got to and killed the queen on my first try, even in my first playthrough. Sure it was way longer but I find JA ending to be a climax, while Meduna feels more like a chore. On some playthroughs, I don't even finish the game because I don't like Meduna much. But that's nitpicking and personal preferences, the game is great anyway.

 

[GarfunkeL]

the different types of missions (spying and taking pictures, stealth stealing or blowing some shit up) were a great addition, too bad thet let that go in JA2.

Oh, I forgot about those! Yeah, that's true - missions weren't just "kill all bad guys" type of things. JA1 also had objectives for you to accomplish and not just kill all. In a sense, you can kinda do that stuff in JA2 because you don't have to fight to the death in a sector or at all. It's possible to perform raids like I sometimes raid that museum in Bali for the relic so I can give it back to the locals in Chitzena. Plus hunting down the hiding terrorists and the extra goals that Sci-Fi mode gives you. But yeah, the overall concept doesn't really allow for lot of variety.

Which is why I still dream of a Shadowrun game using JA2 (1.13) engine and features.

but I had to retry multiple times to finally win

Yeah JA1 is actually really fucking hard. It's very easy to overextend in a battle and get your mercs killed. And some of the maps are just a giant middle finger at the player, like a long bridge with no cover and enemies with rifles on the other side, or that wood sap refinery that's rigged to blow when you enter it, not only ruining the facility but killing your entry team.

 

[Lilura]

Oh, I forgot about those! Yeah, that's true - missions weren't just "kill all bad guys" type of things. JA1 also had objectives for you to accomplish and not just kill all. In a sense, you can kinda do that stuff in JA2 because you don't have to fight to the death in a sector or at all. It's possible to perform raids like I sometimes raid that museum in Bali for the relic so I can give it back to the locals in Chitzena. Plus hunting down the hiding terrorists and the extra goals that Sci-Fi mode gives you. But yeah, the overall concept doesn't really allow for lot of variety.

Bah, JA2 has enough variety. It's not a James Bond game of spying, sabotage and gathering intel. We're not tourists there to take happy snaps of the Queen's arsenal: we're hired guns and we're there to form an army. The dead giveaway is our mode of arrival to Arulco: we're dropped into a combat zone by a chopper.

In addition to what you mentioned above, there are many other examples. And some quests affect Loyalty, itemization and NPC acquisition, which is cool. And yes, we can do 100% silent takedowns of many sectors.

What more do you want?

Yeah JA1 is actually really fucking hard.

I'm not doubting you: many old games are hard because they're poorly designed. But is it as hard as JA2 Expert Ironman?

It's very easy to overextend in a battle and get your mercs killed.

Can't scout?

And some of the maps are just a giant middle finger at the player, like a long bridge with no cover and enemies with rifles on the other side, or that wood sap refinery that's rigged to blow when you enter it, not only ruining the facility but killing your entry team.

This doesn't sound tactical at all. JA2 allows for initial sector positioning of each combat unit based on direction of entrypoint.

The original JA is a great game for 1994. Its UI and tactics/movement are nice and snappy for the time.

Viewport scrolling is shit pre-API era, though, because PC didn't have hardware scrolling from custom chipsets, like the consoles, the Amiga and the X68000 did. Nauseates me.

 

[Roguey]

Makes me nauseous.

This is a small thing that a lot of native speakers get wrong, but something to keep in mind is that people get nauseated, things are nauseous.