Wisdom as stat has little sense in computer and tabletop RPG.

[Rinslin Merwind]

Before I will be murdered on site, I want to make apology for creating such thread, but I tired to suppress my annoyance by how inconsistent, unrealistic and not logical many things connected to this stat.

But first things first, lets look at definition of what wisdom is:

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.

You apply your character’s Wisdom modifier to:

• Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells).

• Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. These are the skills that have Wisdom as their key ability.

Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores. The minimum Wisdom score needed to cast a clerics, druids, paladins, or rangers spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Source: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Wisdom
5e term much shorter, but I think it's the same.

I think many people will say: "Whats wrong with it?"

Well several things:
1) "Common sense" is relative term, for example in one primitive nation cannibalism is norm and in neighboring feudal state it's unacceptable, yet both has their priests that cast spells. It's become even more idiotic if we consider that there over9000 gods in D&D (majority CRPG have pantheon too) and every single one of them has different view on what "Common sense" should be. "Common sense" is just a term used by people who trying convince others to follow some kind of tradition or way of life and shouldn't be a part of stat sheet that describes big group of spell casters.

2) Perception deserve to be a stat on it's own, because this important for all characters that use physical weapons (for close combat at lesser extent, but you still need to find weakness in enemy's armor) and Willpower important too(to resist OP mind spells), but these things barely connected with each other to be stuffed into inconsistent soup as Wisdom. And even less have in common with "Common sense".

3) This point closely connected to previous, but it very important too: you don't need to be wise for being awesome archer/ranger/whoever use in profession his FUCKING EYES, NOSE, EARS TO DO SHIT. There thousands of examples in history when people wasn't wise and yet they succeed as explorers/snipers/hunters/etc. Hell, Profession doesn't need Wisdom too, because perform can use charisma, craft can use perception( if perception separate stat), knowledge -Intelligence.
With wisdom as stat there can be created idiotic situation when mole more wise and has more common sense than optimized fighter just to being aware of surroundings, which doesn't make sense at all.
Example: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Badger_Mole_(3.5e_Creature)

4) "Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score" - As if robots/golems cannot be somehow see things and be charming and convincing, especially models which trying to imitate humans while being object.

Perhaps there is more, but I forgot and maybe latter will add more.

IMHO Wisdom is just soup from different attributes and "rp-flavor" and perhaps it would be better to implement Perception and Willpower instead as separate stats. People who want resist mind spells or cast divine spells with intuition- willpower, people who want see and smell some shit or shoot shit - perception.

All suggestions and critique is welcome.

 

[what am i doing]

Well... it's D&D. The whole thing is a mess, not just one attribute here and there. When you play using D&D or in a video game that adapts it, you're not really expecting a mechanically well designed system as such, it's more, yeah, the GM / developer insisted so we gotta deal with the shit.

I wouldn't try to think of ways to fix D&D personally but rather just use a different system altogether.

 

[Lilura]

Wisdom is the best stat in Planescape: Torment, though.

 

[Theldaran]

I agree with "what am i doing". In D&D, Wisdom measures both common sense, a certain ability to think (but that's also covered by Intelligence), empathy, and perception, as the OP pointed out. In a lot of systems perception and common sense are separated, but not here, I suppose to keep the rolls to a comfortable number, or because D&D attributes are so old, I don't know.

But I think that it can make sense in a videogame, like Lilura says. Baldur's Gate and Ravenloft, to quote the games I've played the most, had little in the way of roleplaying (in BG Charisma was way more important). The ability to discern another's intention is tied to Wisdom and it can be pretty important. It's just that it isn't used that much in D&D videogames.

Not to mention that in 3rd Edition you have a lot of skills tied to Wisdom as their key attribute.

I agree though that Wisdom is the most confusing of D&D attributes (second being Charisma). A ranger has high Wisdom because his senses are honed, not because he can deliver terribly shrewd speeches or because he has a lot of life experience.

As for willpower, IIRC from 3ED onwards it was now tied to Charisma as per the rules.

I guess that in games like Disco Elysium the equivalent to Wisdom is key, but I haven't played that. Yet.

 

[Lilura]

Wisdom is also the best stat in Jagged Alliance 2.

 

[Theldaran]

Well, you can always make a "spokesperson" charismatic or savvy main character and have the companions handle the heavy fighting, a la KOTOR.

In some games you speak only with your main character so that absolutely makes sense. Force Persuade is sweet.

I know people that no matter what the build they go for, they always take some negotiation skills. That's a bit extreme because playing a brutish not-too-bright character can be fun too.

It's important to note that in traditional D&D you had attribute adjustments with age. Physical rolls went down and Wisdom was the attribute that grew the most. But I don't think people really used this certain rule. Of course most characters died way before growing old.

 

[Falksi]

The descriptions are a bit vague. I'd say:

Intelligence should be geared towards diagnostic-like logic who's conclusions are brain based. Intelligence should be learned via study.

Wisdom should be instinct based "knowing" who's conclusions come from the gut. Wisdom should be learned via experience, and lifestyle choices (e.g. eating health).

 

[Sabotin]

All the stats are a bit ethereal anyway. I interpret wisdom as being soul related, but it was a bit taboo back when they were designing it or something.

To go over your points:
I think the common sense part meant is more basic than social norms and such. For example, you're hungry, you have to eat. You want to eat edible stuff and the kind that will make you less hungry. You know it's a bad idea putting your hand in a fire. This also kinda fits with life experience building up, it just goes to higher levels.

For the senses themselves I see those more as a physical aspect, part of dexterity even. They're part of hand/eye coordination or fast reflexes and accurate application of force. Now the wisdom part would be the awareness of your outside existence you gain through your senses. You see a tree, your eyes send the picture but you think more along the lines of "there's a tree there", not "I see a tree". When talking to someone and you see their eyes darting about and they're sweating a lot and their voice is shaky you can disregard it or think they're sick or that they're lying to you.

You can also put sensors on a robot, but you have to tell it what the signals they get mean else it's pointless. It's probably a bad idea to dive too deeply and end up discussing artificial intelligence and what is life/reality though. I think of dnd systems as being fairly abstract. For example a will save is based on wisdom, but is not composed entirely of it. I think of the d20 you roll as encompassing all the aspects of it, with wisdom just being the main player. It's a similar thing for attacks/AC being composed of different things and packed up into one roll.

 

[Elex]

DandDwiki? really?

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

DandDwiki? really?

Well I searched about wisdom in Internet and almost everywhere was written same shit. So I decided "fuck it" and used info from this resource.

 

[JarlFrank]

D&D is a good system for pen and paper because it doesn't require too much meticulous recordkeeping and high-tier maths, but for cRPGs it's better to come up with your own systems that make more sense.

 

[laclongquan]

Perception is a bit limited as that stat name.
Yet Wisdom has broader implication as a stat name.
I think the founders err on the side of overgenerous rather than limiting. Which I do think wise.
Although it's abit off putting to have a high level priest acting unwisely~ Considering his wisdom stat and all.