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Quests are useless

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Quests created by hand are pointless unless they're actually good, well written and have levels of interactivity beyond "kill 10 boars and come back to me for XP to do it all over again". Otherwise I'll take Daggerfall/No Man's Sky level proc-gen any day of the fucking week.

Too bad "kill 10 boars and come back to me for XP to do it all over again" is pretty much the extent of procedurally created quests.

Proc gen is a shitty fad that will never be able to replace real quests.
 

Dawkinsfan69

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rpgs are stupid

it's like you combine these ingredients to make an rpg:
  • bad story (as in, worse than a book or movie)
  • god-awful gameplay (as in, all of rpgcodex's top rpgs are admitted (in the fucking reviews) to have horrible gameplay
    [dark souls isn't an rpg and doesn't count]
    )
  • way too much combat (so they can write: "80+ hours 'gameplay' " on the box)
  • slow movement speed (so they can write: "80+ hours 'gameplay' " on the box)
  • pointless/broken shitty gear hamster wheel system
the good ones have:
  • good art/setting
  • instances of decent writing (as in, still worse than a book or a movie but still good in comparison to the other drivel in 90% of the game)
and that's it.

Just admit it, this looks pretty cool:

e549f2ec1d54d1eef74b498ad912e824.jpg

planescapegog.jpg

but it ain't worth putting up with the rest of the game
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Quests created by hand are pointless unless they're actually good, well written and have levels of interactivity beyond "kill 10 boars and come back to me for XP to do it all over again". Otherwise I'll take Daggerfall/No Man's Sky level proc-gen any day of the fucking week.

Too bad "kill 10 boars and come back to me for XP to do it all over again" is pretty much the extent of procedurally created quests.

Proc gen is a shitty fad that will never be able to replace real quests.
"Get me the MacGuffin" is pretty much all you need for a good quest though, provided the procedurally generated obstacles are interesting enough. Which is totally doable already for games that aren't riding the graphics whoring train.
 

Darkzone

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I kind of agree with the OP, but due to different outlook on this problem. I'm against this Journal point for point Quest routine. Quest in my opinion should be more hidden than written in a Quest Log ( Journal ).
Let me tell you about a quest that a friend and i were discussing on friday:
You play a character (let us name him Conan) that has a heard that in a Tower (E-Tower) is hidden a precious ruby, while listening in an tavern to the talk of two scoundrels. (Not written in a quest log.)
Conan is new in the city and has no reputation for beeing a thief and he does not know any fence or a person which could give him this quest.
... What should Conan do first:
1) Go into the tower and get the rubin.
2) Look for a fence.
3) Look for a quest giver that gives him the quest to go to the tower and get the ruby.
( Most games have a Journals that will keep now a quest with sub points, that the playes goes through point for point and this games have even a compass marker where to find this places of interest from the quest and this even in a specific order. )
How will the players react to this? If there is no Journal from the beginning or if there is no Quest in the Journal?
What is more immersive?:
Looking in this world for plausible hidden quests or looking for a quest board? What gives more possibilities for quest design?
 

Verylittlefishes

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Tl;dr is it good to not having implemented journal or map in Serpent in the Staglands?

Also Dungeon Rats is AoD stripped of the story/quests, is it better game overall?
 

Divine Blessing

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while i empirically agree, i also disagree ontologically. as quests r simply textboxed objectives, both r the same gameplay containers with simply different styles. they r roadmarks leading to the next traffic light (in better games: at the crossroads). after 30years of "gaming, esp. rpg culture" my attitude degenerated from existential to nihilistic:
while i cant finish Loremaster (WoW), cuz Fed-EX textboxes, also i simply cant even install Sekhiro or The Surge 2, cuz i ve been (and lived) there, i have seen it all from Akalabeth to Original Sin 2, its been a long and (in the end) disenchanting journey tru consumerist dreams.

also player agency is an over-and abused buzzword like environmental storytelling, another trivial iteration of Open World/Sandbox, like GTA or Minecraft, there r the same, but lesser told limits, which arent the opposite, bu the reduction of quest driven narrative:
there is no player driven persistance, as even EVE is moderated, iterated and limited (although its the most closest iteration of "player agency" in gaming history). i cant become the god-king of Stormwind to purge Azeroth from Horde apologism, i simply can live in my headcanon or adapt the (design) limits given. at this endgame stage of gaming my singular option was a career as car-industrial and investment broker dominating markets via my alt army. thats not player agency, but simply nihilstic desperation, as its the same design everywhere, but here at least i earn RL with my second live. the same design everywhere, as FallOut is Diablo, but turn based, its all about (to quote Raph Kostner) to kill XP bags for being able to kill bigger XP-bags for being able to kill the biggest XP-bags: power fantasies. and every of these power fantasies doesnt deliver to the souverein grandeur of my headcanon, they r like neglected kids trying to perform Frank Herbert (Dune).

so i read this shallow RPS article from Alec Meer, where Disco Elysium became a mirror for existential self-reflection (in relation to Planescape:Torment) on aging, which is just an anti- (and therefore still a) power fantasy, esp. for the conlcusion of his self-insight. its the same, but with inverted signs. so is the narrative, system and reward design.

but thats RPG! would be a legitimate argument, the genre is defined by its (design-, also narrative and mechanical) limits, without power curve and therefore at least this basic objective (/indirect quest) it wouldnt be RPG. thats my issue, the genre hasnt evolved any other than mechanically (systems, graphx etc), it simply grew a tedious chore in endless iterations, and thats not longer RPG iam going to play, as i already played em all.
 

Gibson

Learned
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Jun 23, 2019
Messages
325
Because storyfaggotry has had its run.

says the person whoose statistic on own blog read:
from 10 Games (BG3 not included, but we all know it's going to be a storyfag game), only 4 are non storyfaggotry games (included are ToEE and IWD games which do have story and quests but not really) and one of them is Diablo 2 (facepalm).
so the person most oposed to storyfaggotry is statistically most fascinated with storyfaggotry games (but then again, when one thinks Diablo is a masterpiece...i mean...what more needs to be said)
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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says the person whoose statistic on own blog read:
from 10 Games (BG3 not included, but we all know it's going to be a storyfag game), only 4 are non storyfaggotry games (included are ToEE and IWD games which do have story and quests but not really) and one of them is Diablo 2 (facepalm).
so the person most oposed to storyfaggotry is statistically most fascinated with storyfaggotry games (but then again, when one thinks Diablo is a masterpiece...i mean...what more needs to be said)

Which statistics are you citing?

I'm the only RPG commentator in existence who has covered Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE with the degree of attention they deserve.

And since my write-ups are 1st-ranked on Google, I can claim Champion-status in respect to combat.

And when I cover storyfag RPGs (which is rare), combat-related coverage accounts for 90% of all words written.

I'm the only RPG commentator to ever have given breakdowns on THAC0, AC and ApR for the three main IE games. And guess what? High-ranked on those, too.

Because they're the most accurate and thorough ones ever written. 99% of my keywords are technical/tactics-based. Again, I'm a combat CHAMPION with the write-ups to prove it.

You.. on the other hand? Naught but a shitposter lost in the shuffle, and unread.
 

PrettyDeadman

Guest
says the person whoose statistic on own blog read:
from 10 Games (BG3 not included, but we all know it's going to be a storyfag game), only 4 are non storyfaggotry games (included are ToEE and IWD games which do have story and quests but not really) and one of them is Diablo 2 (facepalm).
so the person most oposed to storyfaggotry is statistically most fascinated with storyfaggotry games (but then again, when one thinks Diablo is a masterpiece...i mean...what more needs to be said)

Which statistics are you citing?

I'm the only RPG commentator in existence who has covered Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE with the degree of attention they deserve.

And since my write-ups are 1st-ranked on Google, I can claim Champion-status in respect to combat.

And when I cover storyfag RPGs (which is rare), combat-related coverage accounts for 90% of all words written.

I'm the only RPG commentator to ever have given breakdowns on THAC0, AC and ApR for the three main IE games. And guess what? High-ranked on those, too.

Because they're the most accurate and thorough ones ever written. 99% of my keywords are technical/tactics-based. Again, I'm a combat CHAMPION with the write-ups to prove it.

You.. on the other hand? Naught but a shitposter lost in the shuffle, and unread.
You cover a lot of nwn modules, and most of them tend to be story-focused, if I am not mistaken. Though the poster was referring to "games", so modules were supposed to be excluded from that list. Still, if you take into account those, the inclination of your blog will trend towards story.
 

Gibson

Learned
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Messages
325
Which statistics are you citing?

my very own statistics->look on your blog, aee all the games from list and divide them on storyfag/non-storyfag/between

but since you think diablo is a masterpiece, i shall dumb my answer down for you for easier comprehension:

qwef.png

BG->storyfag game (1 point)
BG2->storyfag game (1 point)
BG3->not released, but will probably be a storyfag game (0,5 each category)
PS:T-> Storyfag king of games (1 point)
IWD->somewhat lesser storyfag game (0,5 each category)
IWD2->see one above (0,5 each category)
NWN->storyfag game (1 point)
JE2->non storyfag game (1 point)
ToEE->not really a storyfag game (0,5 each category)
Fallout->storyfag game (1 point)
Diablo 2-> retarded
------------------------------------------------
Total: 10 games mentioned (Diablo 2 is retarded when compared to other games on the list so I removed it)
Storyfag, total points: 7
Non storyfag, total points: 2,5

now, we may quibble about point allocations, but the verdict still stands: according to your prestigious blog, you most deffinetly prefer storyfag titles; the only non storyfag game on your blog is JA2 and let's say ToEE and two IWD games. the majority are still storyfag games.
therefore, lilura, I dub thee: STORYFAGGOT
were you not a storyfaggot, you would be covering non-storyfag titles, there are plenty of those yet you choose (by yourself) to cover mostly storyfag titles. we could say "at that time period the only decent games were storyfag games" which is somewhat true, but you find the storyfag time-period the best (it seems). either way, you're a storyfag.


I'm the only RPG commentator in existence who has covered Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE with the degree of attention they deserve.

And since my write-ups are 1st-ranked on Google, I can claim Champion-status in respect to combat.

And when I cover storyfag RPGs (which is rare), combat-related coverage accounts for 90% of all words written.

I'm the only RPG commentator to ever have given breakdowns on THAC0, AC and ApR for the three main IE games. And guess what? High-ranked on those, too.

Because they're the most accurate and thorough ones ever written. 99% of my keywords are technical/tactics-based. Again, I'm a combat CHAMPION with the write-ups to prove it.

You.. on the other hand? Naught but a shitposter lost in the shuffle, and unread.

such explosion of narcissistic dribble and ad-hominem attack only proves I've hit the nail precisely on the head. thank you for this freebie.
 
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JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I kind of agree with the OP, but due to different outlook on this problem. I'm against this Journal point for point Quest routine. Quest in my opinion should be more hidden than written in a Quest Log ( Journal ).
Let me tell you about a quest that a friend and i were discussing on friday:
You play a character (let us name him Conan) that has a heard that in a Tower (E-Tower) is hidden a precious ruby, while listening in an tavern to the talk of two scoundrels. (Not written in a quest log.)
Conan is new in the city and has no reputation for beeing a thief and he does not know any fence or a person which could give him this quest.
... What should Conan do first:
1) Go into the tower and get the rubin.
2) Look for a fence.
3) Look for a quest giver that gives him the quest to go to the tower and get the ruby.
( Most games have a Journals that will keep now a quest with sub points, that the playes goes through point for point and this games have even a compass marker where to find this places of interest from the quest and this even in a specific order. )
How will the players react to this? If there is no Journal from the beginning or if there is no Quest in the Journal?
What is more immersive?:
Looking in this world for plausible hidden quests or looking for a quest board? What gives more possibilities for quest design?

The best quest log is still Arcanum's. It takes notes when people give you quests so you can remember wtf they wanted of you, and also makes journal entries about important things, but it doesn't meticulously keep track of every quest step. "I'm supposed to find the mines of the Black Mountain clan" is all you get.

while i empirically agree, i also disagree ontologically. as quests r simply textboxed objectives, both r the same gameplay containers with simply different styles. they r roadmarks leading to the next traffic light

Dude, what the actual fuck.

You use words like empirical and ontological and actually present some decently written thoughts.

But then you don't even put in the effort to write out the word "are".

What the actual fuck, man. What the actual fuck.
 

barghwata

Savant
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
Messages
504
Which statistics are you citing?

I'm the only RPG commentator in existence who has covered Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE with the degree of attention they deserve.

And since my write-ups are 1st-ranked on Google, I can claim Champion-status in respect to combat.

And when I cover storyfag RPGs (which is rare), combat-related coverage accounts for 90% of all words written.

I'm the only RPG commentator to ever have given breakdowns on THAC0, AC and ApR for the three main IE games. And guess what? High-ranked on those, too.

Because they're the most accurate and thorough ones ever written. 99% of my keywords are technical/tactics-based. Again, I'm a combat CHAMPION with the write-ups to prove it.

You.. on the other hand? Naught but a shitposter lost in the shuffle, and unread.

a.PNG
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Messages
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The best quest log is still Arcanum's.

Meh, lots of RPGs have concise journal entries that don't hold your hand every step of the way. Or none at all. I don't see why Arcanum should be singled out as being anything special, much less "the best".

But then, maybe you didn't mean "best". Like when you said "PS:T is the best fucking game ever in every aspect."
 

TheImplodingVoice

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The best quest log is still Arcanum's.

Meh, lots of RPGs have concise journal entries that don't hold your hand every step of the way. Or none at all. I don't see why Arcanum should be singled out as being anything special, much less "the best".

I honestly thought that you are a troll.

I also thought the same. But if someone has delusions of grandeur it often comes across as being a troll.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Ok this is retarded.

BG->storyfag game (1 point)
BG2->storyfag game (1 point)

Arguable. BG1's story is generic and boring and the companions aren't half as developed as in the sequel. I guess it can count as half a storyfag game, but the main focus is on questing (fetch and kill quests) and crawling through hordes of bandits. I might be biased though because I don't like BG1 that much, it just feels too generic to me so I always ignored the story.

BG2 has a bigger focus on (and a more interesting) story, yes, and especially the detailed companions with their banter and flirting count towards storyfaggery. But BG2 also has amazing itemization (you'll be showered in more unique items than you can equip on a full 6 character party), challenging set piece encounters (plenty of dragons, beholders, illithids, drow, enemy wizards, etc etc) so theoretically you can play through the entire game while skimming through all the dialogue and just focusing on the meaty combat. BG2 is as much about the dungeon crawling and exploration as it is about the story.

BG3->not released, but will probably be a storyfag game (0,5 each category)

Considering Larian's recent output with the Divinity Original Sin games, it's probably going to follow the trend of the old Baldur's Gate games: yes, it will have a story and companions and all that jazz, but there will also be a detailed combat system and a focus on fighting through encounters. Did you play through the D:OS games? They were anything but storyfag games, 90% of what you do in these games is fight through set piece encounters with an interesting turn based combat system.

PS:T-> Storyfag king of games (1 point)

That one actually counts, yes.

IWD->somewhat lesser storyfag game (0,5 each category)
IWD2->see one above (0,5 each category)

What the fuck are you smoking? I guess Wizardry 8 is a storyfag game too because the villain has a name and motivation and there are NPCs who talk to you. :roll:

NWN->storyfag game (1 point)

I famously hate NWN for having shitty gameplay (everything is soooooooo slooooooooooooooooow), but a storyfag game it ain't. Most of your time in the OC is spent boringly and slowly wading through endless trash mobs. 99% of time in the NWN OC is spent in combat. Even the companions are underdeveloped compared to Bioware's previous games. Absolutely not a storyfag game.

JE2->non storyfag game (1 point)
ToEE->not really a storyfag game (0,5 each category)

Ok, I really don't get your definitions here. What makes ToEE a "somewhat storyfag" game and JA2 a "not at all storyfag" game? JA2 has more story than ToEE. It has those funny cutscenes with Deidranna and Elliot and a pretty well-developed backstory as to why you're fighting that queen bitch of Arulco. ToEE has you invade the Temple of Elemental Evil to stop some evil goddess - overall, the motivations of the villains are a lot less well developed than in JA2. ToEE is a classic dungeon crawling module through and through. Also, both games have a few fetch quests, so ToEE having quests doesn't make it a more "storyfag" game compared to JA2.

I can't think of a single reason to call ToEE a storyfag game. Not one.

Fallout->storyfag game (1 point)

lolwut

Fallout isn't a storyfag game. It's an explorefag or a C&Cfag game, but not storyfag. The writing is concise and to the point, the quests are designed to allow for high player agency rather than forcing the player into epic linear narratives, and you can even speedrun the game in 5 minutes if you know where to go, skipping 90% of the story in the process. You have a weird definition of "storyfag game".

Diablo 2-> retarded

"Retarded" is not a category in your rating list. It's either a storyfag game or it's not. Whether you like the particular subgenre or not does not matter. You may dislike Diablo and its clones, but it's definitely not a storyfag game (and overall not a storyfag genre whatsoever).

The one thing that's truly retarded here is your definition of "storyfag".
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The best quest log is still Arcanum's.

Meh, lots of RPGs have concise journal entries that don't hold your hand every step of the way. Or none at all. I don't see why Arcanum should be singled out as being anything special, much less "the best".

But then, maybe you didn't mean "best". Like when you said "PS:T is the best fucking game ever in every aspect."

I don't think I ever said that about PS:T.

Arcanum, on the other hand... :M
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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I don't think I ever said that about PS:T.

It was a long time ago.

Glad we agree on what is and isn't a storyfag RPG. However, I don't see how Arcanum can be the best game ever (or even in the top 20) because its non-commital combat system sucks and its combat encounter design does, too.

It does have reactive greatness, meaningful questing and the greatest hub in the genre, though (Tarant). I'd never deny it that. Plus, isometric perspective, nice UI and good world-building along with good writing, lore and interesting characterizations. And GUNS.

But... its combat is atrocious. What a pity.
 
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