Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The REAL overlooked sin in RPGs: disconnect between narrative and mechanics

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
Speaking as a dev in a really niche field: You're mostly right, but refunds are a thing though. Thankfully, niche games aren't usually at risk for a review bomb unless you really screw up.
Unless you've managed to offend the Chinese, I don't think too many people are going to spend their time buying your game knowing they already don't like it, merely to reviewbomb it before refunding it.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,769
A real-time game like Dark Souls requires a different skill set than real time with pause/turn-based RPGs. Just pop on over to Steam's Kingmaker reviews to see how many people handle high barriers.
The point wasn't about real-time versus turn-based, but you're making an interesting enough argument (while Trashos is stating some sort of factoid that's hard to refer to).

Yes, people who like real-time may be a different playerbase than those who prefer real time with pause or turn-based games (although I wouldn't say any of the above necessarily excludes one another. I have played all of them and in each category I found games that I liked). However, unless you have some real-life issues, you shouldn't have much troubles playing in real-time. As such I don't quite agree on "requiring a different skill set". Again, I will admit to playing mostly turn-based games (and real time games with pause), but that's purely because of my preferences rather than anything else. Not because I am some kind of mastermind.

Or are you trying to say that people who like real-time (Dark Souls) are simply too stupid to handle challenge of a different kind (Kingmaker)? If so, I have to say this supposed correlation is unproven. There will always be some people complaining about something, which isn't really a game's fault (like people complaining about RNG in every single game containing RNG). However, the lone fact that a bunch of people do not like how hard Kingmaker is, isn't exactly conclusive of anything else than people not liking how hard Kingmaker is. That's why I find your deduction to be dubious.
 
Last edited:

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
A real-time game like Dark Souls requires a different skill set than real time with pause/turn-based RPGs. Just pop on over to Steam's Kingmaker reviews to see how many people handle high barriers.
The point wasn't about real-time versus turn-based, but you're making an interesting enough argument (while Trashos is stating some sort of factoid that's hard to refer to).

Yes, people who like real-time may be a different playerbase than those who prefer real time with pause or turn-based games (although I wouldn't say any of the above necessarily excludes one another. I have played all of them and in each category I found games that I liked). However, unless you have some real-life issues, you shouldn't have much troubles playing in real-time. As such I don't quite agree on "requiring a different skill set". Again, I will admit to playing mostly turn-based games (and real time games with pause), but that's purely because of my preferences rather than anything else. Not because I am some kind of mastermind.

Or are you trying to say that people who like real-time (Dark Souls) are simply too stupid to handle challenge of a different kind (Kingmaker)? If so, I have to say this supposed correlation is unproven. There will always be some people complaining about something, which isn't really a game's fault (like people complaining about RNG in every single game containing RNG). However, the lone fact that a bunch of people do not like how hard Kingmaker is, isn't exactly conclusive of anything else than people not liking how hard Kingmaker is. That's why I find your deduction to be dubious.
On release, most normies also found Dragon Age too difficult. Figuring out timing/patterns is low skill floor/high skill ceiling gameplay, understanding the intricacies of a role playing game system is high skill floor/lower skill ceiling typically (The floor being the amount of skill necessary to be competent, and the ceiling being the amount of skill necessary to master).
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,769
QED

On release, most normies also found Dragon Age too difficult. Figuring out timing/patterns is low skill floor/high skill ceiling gameplay, understanding the intricacies of a role playing game system is high skill floor/lower skill ceiling typically (The floor being the amount of skill necessary to be competent, and the ceiling being the amount of skill necessary to master).
What data was used to quantify that "Most" and "Normies" found Dragon Age too difficult?

Figuring out timing/patterns is low skill floor/high skill ceiling gameplay, understanding the intricacies of a role playing game system is high skill floor/lower skill ceiling typically (The floor being the amount of skill necessary to be competent, and the ceiling being the amount of skill necessary to master).
Even so, the trend is supposed to go towards lowering the challenge, not embracing it (in case of Dark Souls).
 

DraQ

Arcane
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
32,828
Location
Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
One of the biggest shocks many console players had when playing Fallout, KotOR, or even Skyrim for the first time, was how consistent RPG mechanics were with the game world and the plot. XBOX players who created a thief in Oblivion and were able to actually sneak around and steal some shit from stores were fascinated, even if that was pretty common stuff in computer RPGs.
Bethesda has actually been pretty consistently good with this kind of consistency, even in oblivious.

You could always use mechanics in pretty much any context and ever since Morrowind everyone in the world has been carrying actual inventory that could be used by them and seen on their person, and looted from their body or stolen. Also, other characters were governed by the same set of stats as the PC.

Hell there even was an easter egg in Bloodmoon, where you fight a bear that starts belching fireballs at you
Turns out it has eaten someone who had ring of fireballs on their person
.

In Skyrim you can also put usable items in corpse's inventory then raise them and have them use it - that's the best way to use J'Zargo's shitty scrolls that explode you in addition to surrounding undead and yes, it counts for the quest.
 

sullynathan

Arcane
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
6,473
Location
Not Europe
More mainstream titles like GTA have a protagonist going "OMG, I can't take this life of crimes anymore, I can't even think about taking another human life again, blablabla" and two seconds later you're back to killing hookers for easy cash.

Mainstream titles like God of War and the Playstation games have gotten this for the past ~5 years now. There is little disconnect between gameplay and story. R* themselves also made improvements over their GTA titles with the red dead redemption games in this department, alas, currency is still a problem.

I don't think that having God of War give narrative importance to something, like fast travel, made the gameplay better the upteenth time you had to walk to one area to use your portal doors to get from one place to another, or removing fast travel, just because the story said so. But perhaps the problem there is the console hardware and not really the gameplay system in place.
 

Open Path

Learned
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
67
Location
Hesperides
A real-time game like Dark Souls requires a different skill set than real time with pause/turn-based RPGs.

On release, most normies also found Dragon Age too difficult. Figuring out timing/patterns is low skill floor/high skill ceiling gameplay, understanding the intricacies of a role playing game system is high skill floor/lower skill ceiling typically (The floor being the amount of skill necessary to be competent, and the ceiling being the amount of skill necessary to master).

Those are gross simplifications. Real time is not a synonym of "reflexes over character stats". There are some real time but totally stats based combat systems in crpgs in which most complaints by the casuals is about how "difficult" is to understand the system, how absurd is the hit chance existence at all, how annoying are skills, fatigue or weapon deterioration influence in success, etc.

On the other hand, RTwP the most recent "time" system in crpgs, the only true newcomer, 10-15 years younger than RT systems -both in first appearance and popularization- is not comparable with turn based systems.

Finally, among RTwP games, Kenshi is extremely more challenging than Baldur's Gates and that's not by the intricacies of understanding the system.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
Relying on spyware to collect your data leads to a clear sampling bias because clueful people BLOCK SPYWARE.
These people are a minority.

Those are gross simplifications. Real time is not a synonym of "reflexes over character stats". There are some real time but totally stats based combat systems in crpgs in which most complaints by the casuals is about how "difficult" is to understand the system, how absurd is the hit chance existence at all, how annoying are skills, fatigue or weapon deterioration influence in success, etc.
That's not Dark Souls though, which is an action game. But right, RTS and action gameplay also require different skill sets.

On the other hand, RTwP the most recent "time" system in crpgs, the only true newcomer, 10-15 years younger than RT systems -both in first appearance and popularization- is not comparable with turn based systems.

Sure it is. Not too much difference between Kingmaker with the turn-based mod or not in terms of what you need to do to succeed.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
It really sounds like DAO was planned to be a great game, but then some higher up called a meeting with the dev team that went something like:

Suit: "guys, guys, this new DAO game looks incredible. You people are amazing! However...did you now a considerable portion of our audience is mentally handicapped?"
Devs: What...?
Suit: yeaaaah, this whole "Loghain might have had a point" and lyrium addiction mechanics are totally gonna go over the heads of most players. So...we 're gonna keep it simple and accessible for everyone and save some nice bucks in the process!

Saddest part is that if I were a share holder in the company, that's 100% the decision I would want the board to take. The lion share of the market is braindead. LS is right when he said "gamers are retarded". Because they are.
That's pretty much what seems to have happened. EA was of the opinion that games needed to be convenient for the user and that they shouldn't feel like they were punished for the decisions they didn't make. As a result Dwarf Noble questline was scrapped because it would be unfair to non-DN players (this is what Bioware said about removing it later - that it would've been "unfair"), Dalish Elf quest just autopilots you to the ideal solution (Bioware had previously gone on the record as saying you would have to work in order to obtain the ideal solution), Persuasion and Intimidate were merged (in an earlier E3 demo they were separate), and Wynne not only has no opinion on MC being a Blood Mage, but you can make her a Blood Mage herself. It also seems to be why they added dex to damage and why they nerfed the shit out of Grease Fire spellcombo (the Tower of Ishal fight skullfucks noobs who cannot understand stepping out of the fire). I have no hard evidence for this being EA's fault, and Bioware is on the record as saying that EA tried to stay hands-off in DAO because they didn't want to complicate an already lengthy development process, but it's clear that EA did have a direct hand in the change of branding, the really shitty DLC (with salesmen, no less), the removal of Shale to repackage it as DLC content in a move to screw over 2nd hand copies, and the timeline adds up. A lot of these cuts happened after in the last year after EA took over. Then again cuts are normal in the last year of development.

we all know, no one has the willpower to do forced ironman. Anyone who claims they do it is a big liar whos computer always seems to accidently lose power when the situation isnt looking so great
I've done ironman before. It's fun, actually. Losing sucks but you approach the game very differently when save and reload is no longer an option. It makes it better, in a lot of ways, when risk management becomes a serious concern and you have to live with the consequences of your decisions. You get more careful and start planning ahead more. Unlimited Save+Reload has a really bad effect in terms of how brainlessly people will proceed through a game.

Relying on spyware to collect your data leads to a clear sampling bias because clueful people BLOCK SPYWARE.
It's integrated into the game itself. Part of their Bioware Social Network shit. Some folks turn it off but those are a minority. You're right that there's a bit of a selection bias going on though.
 
Last edited:

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
Bioware messed up on its own for years well before they were owned by EA. DA:O's five year development cycle was all on Bioware. Recouping all that money necessitates a greater amount of accessibility.
 

Lutte

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
1,968
Location
DU's mom
It didn't really benefit from a five year cycle development the way we think about time spent in normal contexts.
They started devving the demo they showed in E3 2004 in 2002.

Now let's look at all the games Bioware released since 2002 (and into DAO's final release in 2009) :

KOTOR
Jade Empire
Mass Effect
That forgotten Sanic game

You think they ever had a team work full time on this besides the crunch times in the last year before release? Looking at credits you find the DAO guys in the various teams of those games, like Laidlaw being a writer on Jade Empire.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Bioware messed up on its own for years well before they were owned by EA. DA:O's five year development cycle was all on Bioware. Recouping all that money necessitates a greater amount of accessibility.
DAO had been in development since late 2002, although the earlier builds were all NWN engine demo shit. Ostagar, Urn of Sacred Ashes, and Avvar barbarians were all in those prototypes. It's true that Bioware was damn slow and started chopping content towards the end. Honestly they should've used DLC and expansions to fix that but instead they just threw out loads of garbage. Probably didn't help that DAO's engine was one of those unwieldy messes that makes game development more laborious than necessary, but that was on them too. They didn't have a whole lot of technical competence there, and it shows. NWN wasn't nearly as shit in terms of rapid prototyping, but as they started upgrading the tech it just became a more unwieldy mess.
 
Last edited:

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
It didn't really benefit from a five year cycle development the way we think about time spent in normal contexts.
They started devving the demo they showed in E3 2004 in 2002.

Now let's look at all the games Bioware released since 2002 (and into DAO's final release in 2009) :

KOTOR
Jade Empire
Mass Effect
That forgotten Sanic game

You think they ever had a team work full time on this besides the crunch times in the last year before release? Looking at credits you find the DAO guys in the various teams of those games, like Laidlaw being a writer on Jade Empire.
Knowles has gone over what developing DA:O was like on his blog and took responsibility for taking much longer than they should have. Laidlaw came in late as the guy responsible for porting it to consoles, yes.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Come to think of it, in the E3 demo the year before release, Bioware was showcasing some C&C where the guards in the Tower of Ishal questline were optional, and they would only die if they went along with you. So it seems there really was a push to avoid and reduce any forms of C&C that penalize you or lock you out of content. Guards become automatic. Dwarf Noble questline is scrapped (for being an obviously better solution than either Harrowmont or Bhelen that only DN origins get). Dalish questline autopilots you to ideal solution. Wynne no longer cares about the MC being a Blood Mage (cutscene disabled) and can even become a Blood Mage herself. Persuasion and Intimidate are merged into Coercion. The closest you had to being penalized for failing to take a choice is that if you killed the Mages (which is a sociopathic option) your only options for Connor are the blood ritual or stabbing him. All these changes seem to have happened post-EA. A bunch of content was not merely cancelled but removed along these lines.

Of course Human Commoner origin was also axed during this time, and only because it seemed too generic and uninteresting.
 
Last edited:

Tim the Bore

Scholar
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
109
Location
Potatoland
I mean, I kinda agree, but I think that your opinion is based on the wrong assumption - that there is such thing as difference between gameplay and narrative in the first place. I'd like to disagree, I think that - ideally - they're the same thing. Let me explain why.

This one may get a little lengthy - don't worry, I'll provide a tl;dr at the end.

I think that this distinction - between gameplay and narrative aspects of the game - is unavoidable when analyzing the game; you have to be able to focus on particular issues of the product that you're thinking about. Especially if said product - a video game - is made by dozens or even hundreds of people, each with their own field of interest, while you're trying to focus on particular issues. That said, this distinction is unnecessary and, in fact, harmful, when you are making a game. And the same goes for all the other aspects of the game - visuals, audio design, UI, freaking font, everything. All of these things should be a reflection of the main theme - the idea, the core - of the whole experience. To reach a point in which making a distinction between these things wouldn't even be possible.

What I mean by that is that there is no such thing as "pure gameplay" or "pure story". What that would even mean? What would be "the story in itself"? The story is not presented through some tools, the story *is* the tools, just like everything else. It's a very holistic approach. But, and this is important, the narration, the story - they don't mean "a lot of text, a bunch of letters". The narrative can be visuals only or sound only, depends of the medium. The medium dictates what kind of tools are at your disposal - and therefore, what kind of story will you be able to present. You can't watch Kubrick movies on muted TV, the whole experience would be gone. And you can't have a good story in a video game with bad gameplay (or even worse, without it) - but not because these things should work together, but because they shouldn't be a situation in which these things are not one and the same. The narrative is the gameplay. Everything exist to express the main idea beneath all of it. But "idea" (from a lack of better word) doesn't have to be some big, profound revelation, it can be a mindless escapism. Depends on the intentions of the creators.

I'll give you two examples of two games that succeed in expressing their own idea perfectly. Should be enough.
1) Planescape: Torment - critics darling, and often misunderstood (but not here though). The worst praise I've ever heard for this game was that "it's the best book you'll ever play!" - it's horrible, because the story of the game, if you would just take the words, type them on paper and put them in a book - would be horrible. The gameplay in P: T is - for the most part - absolutely excellent. By gameplay I mean - statistics, C&C, dialogues and all the things I don't have a words for. All the interactivity. And then there is a combat which sucks, because nothing is perfect. Trying to analyze the "narration" of P: T without this mechanics would be impossible - not even flawed, just straight up impossible. The story can not be understood if you aren't the one that is making all the choices. You have to be responsible as a player, feeling the weight of all choices that your character made, be aware of all your shortcomings. You can't tell player to feel that, you have to make him. Art should be deceptive, it should affect people without their awareness.

2) DOOM (2016) - This is a game that doesn't mess around. It knows exactly what its fanbase want and provides just that. A rush of adrenaline, an uncomplicated violence. Its story is perfect because it knows it place. It doesn't waste your time, it doesn't drag you down with hundreds of hours of cutscenes, it's plain and simple - because the worst possible sin that DOOM could commit would be to slow the player down. Everything is trying to keep you moving - music, animations, gameplay, everything (note that you can - and have to - make a distinction between these aspects when you're analyzing something - you can't when you're creating something, that's my whole point).
It's impossible to really express the “ideas” of these products through words. That what these games are for, that's why they exist.

Knowing all that, we finally reached BioWare and their problem. And BioWare problem is not that they're creating the story and the mechanics in a complete separation, but that they're thinking there is a difference (other than in abstract analysis). Every medium has its strengths and BioWare is incapable of using the ones they chose. They create the story, the characters, the worlds - but only after these things they think about mechanics. And that's why they're doomed to fail over and over again, because they chose the wrong medium. The idea of that separation would be unthinkable if they chose the correct one. But they want to make movies, books, maybe visual novels - but not video games. Because of that, they are unable to use the tools of any medium whatsoever - they can't have the same control over the flow of the events as they would have in a movie, but they also doesn't provide player with the required amount of reactivity. So maybe they should just make a movie. Or even create a new medium, instead of the one that they chose (this is strictly from a quality point of view; money-wise, pretending to give the player choices and then withdrawn from that promise, while also praising player that he has somehow made the correct ones, is perfect; people like to choose, but they don't like their content being hidden from them because of the "consequences").

Ultimately, BioWare problem is not a conflict between narrative and a gameplay, it's that concept itself. The platform they chose to create something for is incapable of expressing the idea that they have. Since the tools are the story, but they don't want to use the tools they chose, there is not story, there is no idea, there is no "immershun". Yet they’re trying anyway, pushing whatever they can and it ends up being incomplete and lacking. Why? Well, it’s that pesky gameplay of course! If only we could get rid of that!

BioWare need to understand that they can't make a "story", but they can make a game that would express the same sentiment that they’re were trying to contain in that “story”.

tl;dr - read the whole thing, you lazy bum.
 
Last edited:

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
1) Planescape: Torment - critics darling, and often misunderstood (but not here though). The worst praise I've ever heard for this game was that "it's the best book you'll ever play!" - it's horrible, because the story of the game, if you would just take the words, type them on paper and put them in a book - would be horrible. The gameplay in P: T is - for the most part - absolutely excellent. By gameplay I mean - statistics, C&C, dialogues and all the things I don't have a words for. All the interactivity. And then there is a combat which sucks, because nothing is perfect. Trying to analyze the "narration" of P: T without this mechanics would be impossible - not even flawed, just straight up impossible. The story can not be understood if you aren't the one that is making all the choices. You have to be responsible as a player, feeling the weight of all choices that your character made, be aware of all your shortcomings. You can't tell player to feel that, you have to make him. Art should be deceptive, it should affect people without their awareness.

:excellent:
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,717
Location
Frostfell
One of my greatest disappointments was Warlocks on NWN2 exactly by this reason.

You see warlocks on cutscenes and the lore raising demonic armies, having succubus servants, doing all types of cool stuff AND... The warlock mechanic wise is trash. Luckly, there are a mot that makes warlock more pnp like, making tentacles grapple like pnp, giving teleportation, allowing the WLK to summon multiple monsters with "the dead walk", etc and making WLK more pnp like https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/warlock-reworked-102g

NWN2 also suffers from "you can kill revived party members with Raise Dead except if they died in a cutscene BS" that i particularly hate. NWN2 is a amazing game but has this huge flaw...
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
NWN2 also suffers from "you can kill revived party members with Raise Dead except if they died in a cutscene BS" that i particularly hate. NWN2 is a amazing game but has this huge flaw...
ALL RPGs suffer from this. The moment you gain the ability to raise the fucking dead, any plot point revolving around people DYING is immediately null and void, but the writers don't ever think through the implications of this system. Even fucking Princess Bride put more thought into this, by giving "all dead" vs. "mostly dead". It's not an NWN2 thing. Every fucking RPG featuring the death of a character when where we have previously gained, or will shortly gain, the ability to raise people who are dead, suffers from this.

When resurrecting the dead becomes cheap and consequence-free enough, murder turns into this kind of macabre prank that friends play on each other for laughs. I mean, we all know that in the real world, the level of slapstick joke one is willing to pull on someone scales directly with their ability to withstand that without sustaining any permanent damage. Do you routinely punch and kick your beefier, more durable friends? Exactly. If someone can just press F to respawn with no lasting harm at all, murder becomes just one more joke you can pull.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,773
ALL RPGs suffer from this. The moment you gain the ability to raise the fucking dead, any plot point revolving around people DYING is immediately null and void, but the writers don't ever think through the implications of this system. Even fucking Princess Bride put more thought into this, by giving "all dead" vs. "mostly dead". It's not an NWN2 thing. Every fucking RPG featuring the death of a character when where we have previously gained, or will shortly gain, the ability to raise people who are dead, suffers from this.

When resurrecting the dead becomes cheap and consequence-free enough, murder turns into this kind of macabre prank that friends play on each other for laughs. I mean, we all know that in the real world, the level of slapstick joke one is willing to pull on someone scales directly with their ability to withstand that without sustaining any permanent damage. Do you routinely punch and kick your beefier, more durable friends? Exactly. If someone can just press F to respawn with no lasting harm at all, murder becomes just one more joke you can pull.
NWN2 handles it poorly, but it's only trivial in the context of D&D crpgs to make it a worthwhile mechanic for players as opposed to just reloading. Raise Dead requires 5000 gold, Resurrection with its fewer restrictions costs 10,000 gold.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom