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The REAL overlooked sin in RPGs: disconnect between narrative and mechanics

Fairfax

Arcane
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Jun 17, 2015
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Otherwise you should explain why rich people don't stay dead.
Depends on the setting. In FR, laws forbid nobles from being raised/resurrected for obvious reasons.

No D&D spell can bring back anyone who dies from old age.
Wish and Reincarnate/Reincarnation can.

>Doesn''t apply to Resurrection which can bring back anyone.
Funny. Jaheira explicitly says that Khalid can't be brought back because his body was desecrated.
As per AD&D rules:
This miracle restores life and strength to any living creature (including elves), as long as they died within 10 years per caster level and some portion of the dead creature remains (the DM may impose a penalty to success if there is little left). If the character succeeds on the resurrection survival check, they are at full health and ready to perform strenuous activity instantly. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age or natural causes, and ages the caster 3 years. After casting this spell, the caster requires one day of bed rest for each experience level or Hit Dice of the resurrected creature.

Nothing about desecration there. But, being such a :balance: chump, I doubt he even wanted to come back. In the romance path Jaheira even mentions having a dream where she sees Khalid who approves of her moving on to a new bf.
IIRC she says he can't be raised, which is true.
 

Trashos

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In the meantime, there are 600M chess players.
Chess is not a cRPG either. Moreover, chess is in decline all over the world.

The question was whether the industry focuses on retards as customers because they have no other choice. Chess player numbers clearly show that this is not the case, there is a choice. Of course, it is easier to make retards depart with their money, but we are discussing under the presumption that the RPG industry are actual creators and not a bunch of hacks out to steal lunch money from kids.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
While AAA games hate attributes or dumb down attributes and make it 100% tied to the boot that you are wearing, dark souls has a good attribute system, with diminishing returns and stats that measure what your char can and cannot do.
While AAA games has carnavalesque bikini armor, dark souls has good armor design
While AAA games has the mechanics and lore contradicting itself, a random ring says that a boss is blind and you can use this information in your favor.

Dark Souls can be a ARPG, but is one of the best ARPG's over there. Probably the best.
ARPG is a misguided category that has no root in gameplay. We are talking about an action game here, not a CRPG. To bring these type of games in a discussion about cRPGs is pointless.

AAA games sell more than Dark Souls, because better design always means worse sales. So this doesn't help the argument that developers shouldn't expect more from their audience.
 

Cryomancer

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Wish and Reincarnate/Reincarnation can.

Reincarnation is completely different than revive and there are a highly chance that the creature will be reincarned as a Orc or as a Bugbear https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm

AAA games sell more than Dark Souls, because better design always means worse sales. So this doesn't help the argument that developers shouldn't expect more from their audience.

Yes. You are right. Dark Souls is a success by critic and sales due being made by a MID sized studio. Not AAA, nor indie.
 

Harthwain

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You rated my post as retarded, because you completely missed the point I was making in the first place? Talk about being retarded...

Your argument is that Dark Souls success shows that developers don't need to dumb down their games. But Dark Souls is an arcade game and it has a different target audience from cRPGs so your point was moot.
The point remains, because it was never about comparing games/genres themselves or their target audiences. But good job defeating a non-existing argument, I guess?

Depends on the setting. In FR, laws forbid nobles from being raised/resurrected for obvious reasons.
That'd make an interesting quest. I mean, there are bound to be people who try to resurrect people illegally? I admit I don't know much about how exactly the whole resurrection thing works from the technical standpoint. Do both the gods and their priests have to agree to that, or more is needed?
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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IIRC she says he can't be raised, which is true.
Ah, yup, she also directly references the AD&D rule about how using Resurrection ages the caster
Yes, there are greater spells that raise even the aged dead, but they leech from the caster, and I will not ask that of someone! Khalid would not have it!
 

DraQ

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What I mean by that is that there is no such thing as "pure gameplay" or "pure story". What that would even mean?
Chess. Watching LP on YT, with non-relevant bits edited out.
What do I win?

You could easily strip all but pure gameplay from the game by defluffing and tokenizing it - replacing all sounds, graphics and text with completely abstract symbols and bare minimum information about expected branching.
This is actually what often happens during gameplay design:


You could just as easily strip out all but pure story by just watching the story relevant action and fluff without even the UI info.
This in turn is pretty much what often happens during storyboarding (and often yields crappy cRPGs).

Of course, doing this to a well designed game would indeed cripple both parts as they are designed to support each other, with the structure of the gameplay typing into the narrative it's purported to support in logical, consistent ways which leads us to...

...the situation where the different layers of the game tell different, mutually incompatible stories - which happens to be the point of this thread:

They create the story, the characters, the worlds - but only after these things they think about mechanics.
Actually that's not unacceptable. If you design vaguely realistic (which can refer to pretty much any SF or fantasy as well, fuck you very much) story and setting, you might describe most of the stuff that happens (other than magic, which can still be decomposed into RL-ish consequences and your magic system which can in turn be derived from intended feel of the magic) in terms of RL analogues and only then build the actual mechanics for handling those without any problems (other than possibly time and resource management ones, because programming and assets might turn out to be the actual work(TM) part.

BW's problem is not that.
It's exactly them designing both parts in separation without considering how they should merge into game. And they are hardly alone in that - so does Larian, despite being much more competent studio making better and more competently designed games.
There is more than one way to fuck up your game via disconnect between mechanics and something else (including other mechanics), or any other inconsistency.

Gameplay and story, or crunch and fluff should be like accounting - both sides ultimately leading to the same result (telling the same story).
If they don't, you've fucked up.

tl;dr
We might actually be agreeing more than it would seem, but some things needed to be said.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
The question was whether the industry focuses on retards as customers because they have no other choice. Chess player numbers clearly show that this is not the case, there is a choice. Of course, it is easier to make retards depart with their money, but we are discussing under the presumption that the RPG industry are actual creators and not a bunch of hacks out to steal lunch money from kids.

You buy a board of chess and that's it. You can buy a few books too, but come on. People will pirate the fuck of everything on the internet. There is no successful chess industry to speak of.

Here is the thing:

- cRPG is a medium that seems limitless because it is simulationist in nature and can encompass different systems from other genres, but it is severely limited by its stat/skill gameplay and standard conventions.

- Criticizing a cRPG for having worst writing than a book or worst combat than a strategy game is idiotic since they are completely different mediums/genres.

- It is easy to fantasize about ignoring the conventions of the genre, but these things exist for a reason. They work. That's why you have SPs, armor, cities, and NPCs.

- If contemporary cRPG developers are guilty of anything is of trying too many things to fix the genre. I love creative people, but you need to have a solid basis in order to create something. If you think outside the box all the time, you aren't going anywhere. Think about how much importance developers give to new roles such as narrative writing, etc. This is all wrong. Their approach should be the opposite. Instead of comparing cRPGs with books, they should invest even more in the things that only a cRPG can do.

- Genuine cRPGs have a small audience in comparison with other genres because they are hard to learn. There is a high entry barrier that presupposes your familiarity with P&P games. Therefore, cRPGs will never be mainstream. That's fine. That's the nature of the beast. All the action games with stats on the world won't change that.

- If you are disappointed with the medium, you should be playing games from other genres instead.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DraQ

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Your argument is that Dark Souls success shows that developers don't need to dumb down their games. But Dark Souls is an arcade game and it has a different target audience from cRPGs so your point was moot.
[Intelligence] Are you saying that cRPGs' target audience is made of retards? Because that might actually explain a lot about RPGCodex as well.
+M
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Your argument is that Dark Souls success shows that developers don't need to dumb down their games. But Dark Souls is an arcade game and it has a different target audience from cRPGs so your point was moot.
[Intelligence] Are you saying that cRPGs' target audience is made of retards? Because that might actually explain a lot about RPGCodex as well.
You failed that stat check.

The nice way of saying it is that the wide audience is not familiar with cRPGs. If you target that audience, you need to dumb down everything.

The real target audience is composed of a few hundred thousand cRPG enthusiasts. They are more knowledgable and demanding but are peanuts in comparison.
 

DraQ

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Your argument is that Dark Souls success shows that developers don't need to dumb down their games. But Dark Souls is an arcade game and it has a different target audience from cRPGs so your point was moot.
[Intelligence] Are you saying that cRPGs' target audience is made of retards? Because that might actually explain a lot about RPGCodex as well.
You failed that stat check.

The nice way of saying it is that the wide audience is not familiar with cRPGs. If you target that audience, you need to dumb down everything.

The real target audience is composed of a few hundred thousand cRPG enthusiasts. They are more knowledgable and demanding but are peanuts in comparison.
You might need to change that avatar.
I propose:
Talent_Politician.jpg
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
Politician, I am not disputing that chess is cheaper than video gaming. Chess is very cheap.

However, hopefully we have established that non-retards are indeed out there and up for grabs. But it is never going to happen if we follow this plan:
Arcade games are traditionally easy to learn and hard to master, while with cRPGs is the other way around.

Technically your argument here is correct because of tradition, but producing games that are hard to learn and easy to master is the stupidest idea I have ever heard in my life. I know, you are just describing what is actually happening. Well, clearly this tradition has to die.

Your argument about Dark Souls does not sound acceptable btw, but I have not attacked it because I have not played Dark Souls yet. Still, I am pretty sure that the DS creators must have faced the same obstacles that other RPG creators have faced. "It is too hard, it will never sell!" etc. I have also seen youtube game reviewers begging the DS creators to lower the difficulty. It is the same shit with everything.

I have no idea why you or anyone thinks that only RPGs have to be easy to master, while clearly nothing else has to.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Politician, I am not disputing that chess is cheaper than video gaming. Chess is very cheap.

However, hopefully we have established that non-retards are indeed out there and up for grabs. But it is never going to happen if we follow this plan:
Arcade games are traditionally easy to learn and hard to master, while with cRPGs is the other way around.

Technically your argument here is correct because of tradition, but producing games that are hard to learn and easy to master is the stupidest idea I have ever heard in my life. I know, you are just describing what is actually happening. Well, clearly this tradition has to die.

Your argument about Dark Souls does not sound acceptable btw, but I have not attacked it because I have not played Dark Souls yet. Still, I am pretty sure that the DS creators must have faced the same obstacles that other RPG creators have faced. "It is too hard, it will never sell!" etc. I have also seen youtube game reviewers begging the DS creators to lower the difficulty. It is the same shit with everything.

I have no idea why you or anyone thinks that only RPGs have to be easy to master, while clearly nothing else has to.

This is tantamount to saying “The cRPG tradition must die”. It’s not as if we had any saying in this. We are talking about cRPGs. They require an engrossing character system with stats and skills, and most people have no interest in them because they never enjoyed P&Ps in the first place.

cRPGs are easy to master because they are hard to learn. Once you master the systems, you become invincible. This is not my decision. It’s the nature of the beast.

My impression is that the new generation of cRPG players is smaller than the previous because the new players are more interested in playing co-op games or never have the chance to play a P&P in their lives. Of course, I might be wrong and the data may indicate otherwise.
 

Trashos

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Once you master the systems, you become invincible. This is not my decision. It’s the nature of the beast.

No, it is not its nature. There is nothing fundamental in it that requires mastery of the gameplay to be easy. The argument "Gameplay has to be easy because the systems are hard to learn" is completely counter-intuitive. Since cRPGs have a challenging entry barrier (systems that are hard to learn), theoretically they are fit to attract players who enjoy challenges, not people who do not.

My impression is that the new generation of cRPG players is smaller than the previous because the new players are more interested in playing co-op games or never have the chance to play a P&P in their lives. Of course, I might be wrong and the data may indicate otherwise.

I would not know, I am not a pnp player. In the past I have voiced my disagreement with cRPGs clinging to the pnp traditions. Different medium, different needs.
 

DraQ

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Hard to learn, easy to master simply means that the system is clunky and obtuse but trivially broken and easy to game. In other words shitty and shitty.
If being shitty is cRPG tradition then either the tradition or the genre itself needs to fucking die.

In the past I have voiced my disagreement with cRPGs clinging to the pnp traditions. Different medium, different needs.

Yeah, in CRPGs, giving god-like powers like resurrection to players can break the narrative. In PnP, the GM can react accordingly.
It doesn't just apply to resurrection. cRPG is simply completely different beast from PnP, suffering from lack of GM and social interaction with other players, but benefitting from powerful computing engine with tons of memory and processing power.

That makes considerations for systems and content completely different in cRPG.
 

Nifft Batuff

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Nov 14, 2018
Messages
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If you'd apply ludo-narrative dissonance to JPRGs, they'd be dead in the water.
And yet, Nier: Automata is one of the best examples of ludoarrative resonance. I think is one of the best examples of resonance in any media, not only games.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Hard to learn, easy to master simply means that the system is clunky and obtuse but trivially broken and easy to game. In other words shitty and shitty.
If being shitty is cRPG tradition then either the tradition or the genre itself needs to fucking die.
Your argument is shitty. This whole discussion is shitty. I will just call you names because there is no point in debating with shitty people.

No, it is not its nature. There is nothing fundamental in it that requires mastery of the gameplay to be easy.
So please explain to me how can players know a character system from inside out and the game still be challenging. Never mind that you still need character progression, loot, etc.

In the past I have voiced my disagreement with cRPGs clinging to the pnp traditions. Different medium, different needs.

What?

I would not know, I am not a pnp player.
It shows.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Hard to learn, easy to master simply means that the system is clunky and obtuse but trivially broken and easy to game.
No, it means you have tons of skills, stats, the combination between the two of them to account for, etc. If the system is easy, it only means it is a bad system that is repeating what other cRPGs did before. Or maybe it means you are some magic genius that learns things automatically without testing different builds. For the rest of mankind, it takes some actual effort, reading included.
 

Trashos

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So please explain to me how can players know a character system from inside out and the game still be challenging. Never mind that you still need character progression, loot, etc.

You need at least 2 difficulty levels, one for learning the systems and one for being challenged after you learn the systems.
 

sser

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Good topic. I'll just add that this is almost entirely a writing and production issue at heart. Something like the Dragon Age example should have been deleted, or at the very least someone in production should have realized it wasn't congruent with the gameplay.

Also, think this is a hilarious issue for today's "action" games where they always try and make the main character some sympathetic hero. Lara Croft does this all the time, making her all whimpy and "wahhh I shot a guy" in between levels of her being Rambo 2.0, and a game like Prototype which portrays the protagonist as some abused soul, meanwhile in the actual game you are a ball of bloody mayhem wreaking havoc on innocents everywhere. It's just stupid.
 

Norfleet

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Nothing about desecration there. But, being such a :balance: chump, I doubt he even wanted to come back. In the romance path Jaheira even mentions having a dream where she sees Khalid who approves of her moving on to a new bf.
I assume the desecration is the destruction of the remains thereof. Sort of like how you have to defile a mummy completely, otherwise they come back to life.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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I assume the desecration is the destruction of the remains thereof. Sort of like how you have to defile a mummy completely, otherwise they come back to life.
Yeah, Imoen mentions that Irenicus started carving him up after he was dead.
 

Tim the Bore

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Chess. Watching LP on YT, with non-relevant bits edited out.
What do I win?

You could easily strip all but pure gameplay from the game by defluffing and tokenizing it - replacing all sounds, graphics and text with completely abstract symbols and bare minimum information about expected branching.

But you still need some kind of representation, be it a symbol, a sound cue, something. Pure gameplay would be so abstract, you wouldn't be able to even relate to it in any form whatsoever. It needs a form - it may be something very basic, but it's still there. But the term "gameplay" is just a way to focus our imperfect brains on certain aspects of the whole product - but this product isn't actually made of this aspects, it exists as it's own thing. Which is why the perfect art is impossible.

You could just as easily strip out all but pure story by just watching the story relevant action and fluff without even the UI info.
This in turn is pretty much what often happens during storyboarding (and often yields crappy cRPGs).

This isn't a story, it's just a bunch of events. The story is not only "what" is happening, but also "how" it's happening. The way the narrative presents these events is equally - if not more - important than what is actually happening. Setting up the mood, that sort of things. When people talk with each other, the majority of actual conversation is happening through non-verbal gestures and it's the same with the story.

Actually that's not unacceptable. If you design vaguely realistic (which can refer to pretty much any SF or fantasy as well, fuck you very much) story and setting, you might describe most of the stuff that happens (other than magic, which can still be decomposed into RL-ish consequences and your magic system which can in turn be derived from intended feel of the magic) in terms of RL analogues and only then build the actual mechanics for handling those without any problems (other than possibly time and resource management ones, because programming and assets might turn out to be the actual work(TM) part.

This is exactly what I meant - if your idea for a game is strong, the rest will follow naturally (provided you won't fall into some kind of technological limitations). So if you game has a strong sense of identity - and you understood the limitations of the medium you chose - then it's not a matter of creating something from scratch, but rather of unraveling what's already there. You don't need to think about mechanics, they are already present.

BW's problem is not that.
It's exactly them designing both parts in separation without considering how they should merge into game.

The fact that they think it's even possible is already a sign that they don't understand their own medium. The parts of the game cannot just "accidentally" be merged together, they need to come from the same source - that source being that what I unfortunatelly named "idea". That was a horrible term, I don't know what the fuck I was thinking there. But you get what I meant.
I understand focusing of certain aspects of the game as a necessity - no one is omnipotent. But if they think that "the mechanics" and "the story" are two completly different things that need to be somehow connected together, then they already lost. It's like painting a portrait, I can focus on the person or background while making it, but ultimately it's one picture only.
 

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