Lilura's Blog: An Ongoing Codexian Obsession

[Lilura]

The article is currently inconsistent and is not in its final form. It started out as a written Let's Play and then veered more into commentary. Many ammendements need to me made.

Halfway through the write-up, I restarted. There is a note there that I did. I went in confident and then I got shaken by the mod. Doesn't happen often. I went from merchant build to grunt build because that former was just fucking impossibly difficult. And then a few of my views changed with the grunt build.

I will need to add a note explaining that I disabled stamina and fatigue. I'm sorry, but that just isn't fun for me. You get to take several swings of your sword and just collapse on the ground, exhausted and possibly bleeding to death. That is just too hardcore for me. And the enemy doesn't get tired, why should I? Also, the enemy doesn't fall when backpedaling, why should I?

And this is on the easiest mode and it's still fucking hard even when those features are disabled. This is HARD. I've never played a harder aRPG.

So my advice will be sound when I make that ammendement. I'm going to recommend that new players disable those two things I feel like the modder is being cruel to me because the enemy doesn't play by the rules I have to.

It doesn't really matter where you start. I told newbies not to go near dena raiders. The only way they can catch you is if your Company is bloated, which won't happen for one month of play (about 50 hours).

I'll just have to flat-out disagree that going Charisma/Leadership is good advice for any Warband mod I've played, especially Brytenwalda. You don't want a big army for a few months. It slows you down and it's expensive. Morale takes a hit, need more food. You need your Heroes, you need a small elite force (heavy infrantry + cavalry of any kind for distraction and mop up), you need a wagon and you then you need a lair. Charisma/Leadership doesn't do shit for that. It can be cranked later when we deal with Lords and Kingdoms, when diplomacy is required. It isn't required when you're a scrub trying to get on your feet, constantly in danger of having your ass handed to you by even Theows.

Swadia cavalry is not on par with Mamlukes or Slaver Chiefs, not even close. And I already said in the article that heavy infantry is King. But Heroes must be mounted on at least mules and donkeys because it gives them initial mobility on the battlefield. Once in position, they dismount and attack from range at the flank. Cavalry can be used like this as well. I don't have fucking mule-mounted Heroes charging dena raiders, if that's what you think.

I have big issues with this mod. It is cruel to the player. But I also really like aspects of it.

And yes, the two Picts are best with two-handed axes for sure. What the Dena raiders wield: 50 dmg per swing, smashes shields, hacks through heavy armor. A dena raider can hack through a 400/10 resist round shield in three swings. I recruit them into my Company whenever I imprison them. They are grossly, grossly OP.

I'm currently practice-dueling denas to get used to their patterns.

This mod is pure fun, for sure. Best I've played for Warband so thanks for the recommendation all those years ago. It's still fucking hard with fatigue/stamina and backpedal-fall disabled.

 

[Grimwulf]

Just to be clear: you disabled fatigue/stamina and stumbling mechanics, but left the permanent wounds mechanic? Isn't the latter more game-breaking and rage-inducing? Fatigue or stumbling may lead to defeat in battle, but permanent wounds inflict permanent decreases to your stats that cannot be healed in any way and also stack with each other.

Crippling my main character with permanent wounds caused more restarts for me than any other feature in Brytenwalda. It's one of the few ways you can fuck up your playthrough irreversibly. The other one is failing unique quests and preventing yourself from gaining certain artifacts.

 

[Lilura]

I've kept battle wounds, special hits, bleeding and shield bash on, yes. And formations. Probably not wise for the former, but I haven't yet incurred any perma-penalties. Could just be beginner's luck so I'll keep an eye on it.

[edited out this last part: the enemy does play by the rules with heavy armor, it seems]

 

[Valky]

Highly disagree with Lilura's position that M&B was the most complex combat system until XD dark souls XD came out. Dark Souls is baby shit compared to M&B, rote hit, dodge, hit with no depth. M&B had directional swinging and momentum which were far more complex and demanding to master.

I hate how in Warband a fucking peasant can block a heavy great long bardiche with their fucking dagger. The sheer weight and power I swing it down at would split them in half from crown to crotch. I have inflicted 270 dmg hits on them when they don't block. Or a peasant can block my masterwork heavy bastard sword that I swing at them while riding at full-tilt on a champion coarser... with a dagger.

What do you think about my Brytenwalda write-up? It's supposed to be realistic.

I haven't touched Warband since I spent however many hours it took to conquer Calradia under my banner (played vanilla M&B for a while before Warband as well), so I'm not up to date with mods. The gameplay gets stale after a while and most mods look like "warband with a different theme".

 

[Lilura]

The gameplay gets stale after a while

True for most games, even most of the best.

and most mods look like "warband with a different theme".

True for most TCMs, even most of the best.

I think Brytenwalda does a better job of keeping interest levels up than most Warband mods, mainly because it's got a lot more mechanics and it's got extra phases of development. And it's hard.

But yeah, some of Brytenwalda was built out of the Floris and Diplomacy mods. It's not as original as lots of people think.

It's a pity the Warband community has such shitty modders. But again, that goes for most games. It's rare that you get a mod made by someone who has ability + enthusiasm. Most of the time, it's just idiots with a lot of time on their hands that don't know what they're doing.

 

[biggestboss]

https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2020/01/Warband-Brytenwalda-Campaign-Progression.html

 

[Grimwulf]

Second part is out? Nice.

Stay light, stay solid and stay mobile.
Do not destroy bandit lairs or landings. Such strongholds will respawn, but it takes ages. Let those bandit forces get big and nasty. Once they're ripe, bulldoze them to reap massive experience point, renown and material rewards.

Are you suggesting to use the lairs as farms, only engaging with roaming bands? I truly believe a better approach is to take quests for destroying the lairs as soon as they are available (you can easily check it by asking any Scottish noble for rumors about availiable jobs). By taking on these quests you get:

- exp as quest rewards
- mad loot from lairs
- reputation increase

It doesn't take, well, ages for bandit lairs to respawn. Besides, Scottish lands have two bandits lairs constantly spawning. You can farm one, destroy another.

I see you didn't bother setting up businesses during the Warlord phase. I get it, you're playing warrior-type, not leader-type of character (which I'm still convinced is easier), but even for a warrior it is so much easier to take the next Kingdom-founding phase with an established income and a huge army that comes with it.

What buggers me the most is you skipped Brytenwalda quests, which should be done at Warlord stage. Doing them later is near damn impossible due to the whole world-traveling involved. They are all unique, and provide unique rewards like artifacts and such. Some involve unique battles, e.g. Cantabrians (a massive exp boost for any Warlord).

I know, Brytenwalda quests are not that difficult to crack, and none of your readers needs a quest compass. But your other articles are very detailed on every quest, so why skip the topic his time?

 

[Lilura]

Second part is out? Nice.

First part has been expanded a lot, but still needs editing work.

Are you suggesting to use the lairs as farms, only engaging with roaming bands? I truly believe a better approach is to take quests for destroying the lairs as soon as they are available (you can easily check it by asking any Scottish noble for rumors about availiable jobs). By taking on these quests you get:

- exp as quest rewards
- mad loot from lairs
- reputation increase

It doesn't take, well, ages for bandit lairs to respawn. Besides, Scottish lands have two bandits lairs constantly spawning. You can farm one, destroy another.

The quests are boring, though. The devs are clueless about quest design, dungeon design and encounter design. Itemization sucks, too.

I like my overworlds teeming with mobs all the time; otherwise it can get boring and feel lifeless. Biggest bandit mob thus-far encountered:

Still small compared to Floris. In Floris, can get 400-strong bandit mobs roaming. Can get six mobs like that roaming the overworld per month (forest, sea raiders, mountain, taiga, black khergit etc). Not realistic, but fun.

I see you didn't bother setting up businesses during the Warlord phase. I get it, you're playing warrior-type, not leader-type of character (which I'm still convinced is easier), but even for a warrior it is so much easier to take the next Kingdom-founding phase with an established income and a huge army that comes with it.

Company size is governed by Renown, though. I have Company size 500 without pumping CHA or leadership.

I know, Brytenwalda quests are not that difficult to crack, and none of your readers needs a quest compass. But your other articles are very detailed on every quest, so why skip the topic his time?

I didn't completely skip it. I added a quest section and there is a vid showing my char hacking through a 20-strong dungeon with a heavy two handed axe.

I really only play Warband for its combat.

One more thing: streams of arrows fired by archers look great in this mod. I'll have to upload a vid, it's a thing of beauty.

 

[Grimwulf]

First part has been expanded a lot

I didn't completely skip it. I added a quest section and there is a vid showing my char hacking through a 20-strong dungeon with a heavy two handed axe.

Missed that. Gotta re-read the whole thing now.

The quests are boring, though. The devs are clueless about quest design, dungeon design and encounter design. Itemization sucks, too.

Are we talking about Brytenwalda-specific quests, like searching for Beowulf's sword and such? They might be boring compared to dedicated story-telling RPGs like P:T, and yet they are significantly better than vanilla M&B. They even make you think a few times on the "puzzles" and vague directions.

If we talk about generic M&B quests which are also present in Brytenwalda like raiding banding lairs, well, they are FedEX quests. Boring - yes. But also fast. You find a noble, you take the quest, you beat the bandits, you come back to the noble. Barely a distraction from routinely genociding roaming bandits, I say.

Still small compared to Floris. In Floris, can get 400-strong bandit mobs roaming. Can get six mobs like that roaming the overworld per month (forest, sea raiders, mountain, taiga, black khergit etc). Not realistic, but fun.

Brytenwalda is all about realism. You don't get large bands of bandits, but 1000+ armies led by nobles? Easily.

Company size is governed by Renown, though. I have Company size 500 without pumping CHA or leadership.

Any character type gets Renown as he goes, doing those boring generic quests helps a lot, by the way.

The point of CHA and leadership skill is to lower the cost of your army maintenance, which helps a lot during the Warlord stage and later on. Starting as a warrior makes the initial stage of the game easier, but a veteran M&B player will survive the initial stage no matter what. Later on, you'll need CHA and leadership in order to progress. It doesn't matter how big an army could you theoretically gather if you cannot afford it. Renown is secondary in the late game.

 

[Lilura]

Brytenwalda is all about realism. You don't get large bands of bandits, but 1000+ armies led by nobles? Easily.

I'm pretty sure outlaw crews in history could get to sizes that threatened regional authorities. Not sure about Dark Ages, but definitely in Western countries when outlaws were a thing.

And yes, here is the biggest Lord-headed army I've seen so far:

Any character type gets Renown as he goes, doing those boring generic quests helps a lot, by the way.

You can get 30-50 Renown by taking out a huge army with a few elites, though. I guess that's what I find to be the most fun. Nothing builds Renown faster than taking out larger forces with smaller ones by virtue of employing superior Company composition and formational/terrain tactics.

The point of CHA and leadership skill is to lower the cost of your army maintenance, which helps a lot during the Warlord stage and later on. Starting as a warrior makes the initial stage of the game easier, but a veteran M&B player will survive the initial stage no matter what. Later on, you'll need CHA and leadership in order to progress. It doesn't matter how big an army could you theoretically gather if you cannot afford it. Renown is secondary in the late game.

Never played any Warband mod with Cha-focused build. In Brytenwalda, you can have your Lords, Heroes and Mercenary Captains follow you to a siege or battle with with their OWN armies (which show up as Allies in tactics mode). As for cash-flow, it depends on how you manage your lands. I already have more than enough scillingas to keep a largish army afloat. I'm only in Kingdom-founding phase but I don't see that I will need Cha/leadership for the Conquering phase. I'm currently wrecking two factions with no Company size/financial issues. Touch wood.

Renown is capped at 5,000 or so. Usually I get it to about 2,000 and then start building Right to Rule and Honor (Reputation in Brytenwalda). Also, we can convince Lords to come to our side by sending high-CHA diplomatic Heroes.

Another troublesome thing about going CHA/leadership focus for Conquering phase is that you are diversifying a build in a mod that has nerfed experience point progression (for MC, Heroes and troops). You want 30 STR and 30 AGY (Weapon Master 10) if you are warrior type which takes 40 or so levels assuming favorable character history. So there's not much left for CHA/leadership unless you want to play the mod for a very, very long time.

That's why, in Native, if you wanted a good medic (score of 10 in the 3 medical skills), you couldn't really make the medic a warrior as well, unless you played for 100s more hours.

 

[Grimwulf]

Valid points. However,

I'm only in Kingdom-founding phase but I don't see that I will need Cha/leadership for the Conquering phase. I'm currently wrecking two factions with no Company size/financial issues. Touch wood.

Makes it even more interesting to see how are you gonna defend a growing kingdom being unable to pay for stationed garrisons. Letting your vassals manage forts will only get you so far, and it comes with considerable risks of betrayal and incompetence.

Another troublesome thing about going CHA/leadership focus for Conquering phase is that you are diversifying a build in a mod that has nerfed experience point progression (for MC, Heroes and troops). You want 30 STR and 30 AGY (Weapon Master 10) if you are warrior type which takes 40 or so levels assuming favorable character history. So there's not much left for CHA/leadership unless you want to play the mod for a very, very long time.

IIRC, I settled for 24 (maybe 26) STR/AGI during my games, and raised them after maxing out CHA and leadership. The problem with warrior builds in late games are:

- Permanent wounds, lowering that STR/AGI forever;
- Insignificance of individual performance during sieges and massive battles;
- Harder time gathering and maintaining an army compared to leader-type character.

Anyway, don't mind my rants. I'm eager to see your lategame, it's the most interesting part of Brytenwalda.

Edit: also, good job. Really. I'm bad at praising other people's work, but your write-ups, screens, and editing is prestigious.

 

[Lilura]

Makes it even more interesting to see how are you gonna defend a growing kingdom being unable to pay for stationed garrisons. Letting your vassals manage forts will only get you so far, and it comes with considerable risks of betrayal and incompetence.

I think it depends on the vassals' stats, like if they're devoted to you or not and whether or not they provoke controversy. I haven't explored this aspect yet in Brytenwalda though I noticed in Native that, in respect to awarding fiefs, Lords can become jealous of other Lords to the point that it can affect stability of your Kingdom.

The problem with warrior builds in late games are:

- Permanent wounds, lowering that STR/AGI forever;

Well I've got that hardcore feature switched off. Note that injuries can actually heal but it can take months of game-time and could be chance-based.

- Insignificance of individual performance during sieges and massive battles;

With Stamina switched off this isn't as big of a problem. Brytenwalda Dark Ages battle system has it that combat units can only fight effectively for a few mins, which equates to maybe a dozen swings of a great axe before we collapse on the ground from exhaustion. I prefer to fight throughout the battle, tallying 20-30 kills in a siege for example.

- Harder time gathering and maintaining an army compared to leader-type character.

I think the gathering part is just as easy due to Renown accumulation. Not only does Renown increase Company size but it also causes troops to seek US out. In respect to maintenance (paying wages), we'll see what happens I guess.

 

[Grimwulf]

Note that injuries can actually heal but it can take months of game-time and could be chance-based.

Only true until you get a second injury before your first one gets healed. If you do, the first injury becomes permanent, and the second will start healing.

Brytenwalda Dark Ages battle system has it that combat units can only fight effectively for a few mins, which equates to maybe a dozen swings of a great axe before we collapse on the ground from exhaustion.

The key here is to take it slow, meaning no running in heavy armor. Only slow marchnig, preferably alongside your troops. Alternatively, switch to lightweight armors like lorica squamata.

Another option is to fight on a horse, but no two-handed axes for you in this case. Horsemen swords (the REALLY long ones) do the job, though. Even penetrate armor if your horse is fast enough.

If you had all features turned on, I'm sure you wouldn't stick with warrior type for long either. On the other hand, you probably wouldn't stick with the mod itself. Digital suffering isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Besides, Brytenwalda with full difficulty becomes more of a roguelike rather than an average M&B experience.

 

[Lilura]

Only true until you get a second injury before your first one gets healed. If you do, the first injury becomes permanent, and the second will start healing.

You're right:

The key here is to take it slow, meaning no running in heavy armor. Only slow marchnig, preferably alongside your troops. Alternatively, switch to lightweight armors like lorica squamata.

Another option is to fight on a horse, but no two-handed axes for you in this case. Horsemen swords (the REALLY long ones) do the job, though. Even penetrate armor if your horse is fast enough.

If you had all features turned on, I'm sure you wouldn't stick with warrior type for long either. On the other hand, you probably wouldn't stick with the mod itself. Digital suffering isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Besides, Brytenwalda with full difficulty becomes more of a roguelike rather than an average M&B experience.

I doubt the mod is beatable with all hardcore settings on + highest difficulty settings. It's just who can survive the longest.

In my stubbornness, I've made archery work. Even without advantageous terrain (get the archers atop a steep hill and fire down upon the climbers), we can inflict damaging losses on the enemy. At least, if they're light and medium infantry (which is quite common). 40 kills before the mob is upon you is pretty good. Also, hail of arrows can break morale of enemy, causing them to freeze in formation with shields up until they break, or flee. Either way, they get filled full of holes. Took out 80 medium infantry with just 20 archers. Satisfying.

 

[Eyestabber]

I've kept battle wounds, special hits, bleeding and shield bash on, yes. And formations. Probably not wise for the former, but I haven't yet incurred any perma-penalties. Could just be beginner's luck so I'll keep an eye on it.

[edited out this last part: the enemy does play by the rules with heavy armor, it seems]

Have you played Nova Aetas? Very good mod with decent exploration and the ability to colonize Americas with your banner. Or stay and help nords figure their religious differences out while looking for long lost artifacts of Calradia's glorious pass.

 

[Poseidon00]

Lilura's Blog: An Ongoing Codexian Obsession
started by Lilura

 

[Grimwulf]

Damn, this place is getting so much friendlier due to all those negative buttons. Previously we only had brofists. If someone on Codex posted something retarded, like this guy here

Lilura's Blog: An Ongoing Codexian Obsession
started by Lilura

I had to sit down and write a post, explaining in detail why he is retarded. But now I can press a button. Fuck's sake.

I Cannot Read, And I Must Post

She didn't start the thread. Read the OP and skim through the first page of the discussion before posting your valuable (my arse) opinion anywhere on Codex.

 

[Roguey]

Lilura's Blog: An Ongoing Codexian Obsession
started by Lilura

This was a thread split, she didn't start the topic.

 

[biggestboss]

https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2020/01/Warband-Brytenwalda-Defending-Winteringasham.html

 

[Grimwulf]

You won that. Impressive. Especially when you look at your army composition:

Spoiler

Goddamit, is it bad At least it seems like your companions are well-trained and well-geared indeed.

During the Conqueror phase, cash-flow comes from tariffs, rents, looting after big battles with a wagon and selling captives to ransom brokers. Our large Company size means we can drag over 1000 captives to ransom brokers, netting about tens of thousands of scills each time. Captured Lords can also yield many scills when a faction offers to buy them back. The amount offered depends on the Lord's standing within the faction (their Renown) as well as the wealth of the faction.

The funny thing is, you can do all that during Warlord stage. Without even making enemies among other nations. Just sign up as a mercenary band and take part in your employer's wars. Once your contract expires, all relations will be back to neutral (which means profit from the enterprises will not be cockblocked due to negative relations).

Looking at your army screen makes me think you're not quite at the point of building your own Kingdom. When your neighbors make alliances and invade you as a single force, defending can be a major headache.

Good read. Keep those updates coming.

 

[Valky]

I've been able to win battles in warband against armies hundreds more than mine thanks to bottlenecking the game limitations. Only 30 or so enemies spawn at a time as far as I could find and so as long as I kept all of my 30 as top tier Swadian Knights, it was a rout.

 

[Butter]

I've been able to win battles in warband against armies hundreds more than mine thanks to bottlenecking the game limitations. Only 30 or so enemies spawn at a time as far as I could find and so as long as I kept all of my 30 as top tier Swadian Knights, it was a rout.

You can change the battle size in the settings.

 

[Lilura]

Max is 150 battlesize in Native/vanilla though you can employ Battlesize changer if you want larger armies for +difficulty:

Goddamit, is it bad At least it seems like your companions are well-trained and well-geared indeed.

Companions are doing heavy lifting thanks to wielding heavy two handed axes and wearing Mail coat, gloves, helm and greaves for total armor rating of 150. Most are decked out as per the dena raider. Flanking formations is effective but formations backpedal and strafe so, as you know, it's not like in Native where our MC can tally 100 kills per battle.

The funny thing is, you can do all that during Warlord stage. Without even making enemies among other nations. Just sign up as a mercenary band and take part in your employer's wars. Once your contract expires, all relations will be back to neutral (which means profit from the enterprises will not be cockblocked due to negative relations).

True; just not my style. I don't like doing another Lord's dirty work though I agree that's more optimal to power progression and wealth accumulation.

Looking at your army screen makes me think you're not quite at the point of building your own Kingdom. When your neighbors make alliances and invade you as a single force, defending can be a major headache.

Hasn't happened yet, touch wood. I'm engaging with 400+ armies regularly now. Kingdom is founded and I've held it so far and it's starting to prosper a bit, but yeah, I'm not Conquering anything yet.

Four-phase field battles (say, 300 of me vs. 600 of them) can yield 70 Renown and +150 soldiers as well as 20,000 in ransom and 10,000 in loot, so I'm climbing the ladder a bit with each victory.

 

[biggestboss]

https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2020/01/Warband-Brytenwalda-Warpath.html

 

[Grimwulf]

Things go surprisingly good. IIRC, when I played my own games, founding a Kingdom in Brytenwalda resulted in a nearly-instant world alliance against me, followed by a massive gangbang. I wasn't even thinking about expansion or annexing any random castles.

Lilura, I'm curious about your approach regarding defenses. You currently own one town (Linnuis) and one castle (Chesterfield) - do you keep any garrison? You kinda have to, if you plan to continue expanding. Are you going to keep a large cheap force (can withstand a siege for longer) or a smaller elite band (capable of winning auto-resolved battles)?

Spoiler

Cracked me up.